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Covid

The effect of schools staying open on people's compliance

135 replies

bringbackCabanas · 01/11/2020 12:37

I DO NOT want schools to close. I'm happy to send my kids in and will continue to do so.

But, the amount of times I hear, or read on here, "well if they sit at school together all day then they can do x y z outside of school" or "my child is mixing with x amount of people five days a week so what's the point of following the rules?"

Basically that if schools are still open then it's not really a "lockdown" and not everyone will take it seriously.

OP posts:
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Smelliethenelephant · 02/11/2020 14:09

@Deliaskis maybe read my post properly? Cases are seeded from outside school initially. I'm not saying they are continually imported into school from the community. I'm saying that once you have a real cluster in school, then unless school has closed, the cases just bounce between home and school. Irrelevant if everything else is closed. The only way to stop this is to close a school for 2/3 weeks to break the chain. Maybe in schools with no cases, not needed. But in our area, I think it's the only way forward.

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justchecking1 · 02/11/2020 12:45
  • See, RTB, I would honestly disagree that explaining WHY to an child is easy, and I also disagree that it's down to laziness on a parent's part.

    Obviously you can tell a kid "Because that's the rules," or "because I say so." But to me that's the lazy option. Generally I try to get my kids to think about why rules are in place so they understand why following them is important. That's not as easy in this situation. *

    It's not that hard. Get them to imagine 3 people having to pick up something really hot. First one holds it for a split second, the next 10 seconds, and the last person a whole minute. Think about the pain and the damage to their hand in each case. That's a very simplified version of viral load.

    Obviously, in a perfect world you wouldn't have to pick the hot thing up at all (mix with others), but if you really have to, wouldn't you prefer to be the one holding it for just a split second (minimising the contact as far as possible)?
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Legooo · 02/11/2020 12:08

@Stellaris22

100% agree with the pp that said schools staying open depends on compliance outside of school.

Children's education has already been hugely disrupted, sacrificing activities outside of school is hugely important. My DD is going to school but we won't be going to playgrounds etc.

I genuinely don't understand what is so hard to understand about this. Schools NEED to stay open, mixing outside of school needs to stop for this to happen. Schools closing will happen if people are selfish.

We had a school email urging parents not to pressure their kids to 'not tell' their friends/teachers about socialising outside of school. I was shocked that parents would do this!

I think you have different sorts if parents doing this.

Perhaps some who just will use any excuse not to cause inconvenience to themselves. Where her schools close for not they’d find some excuse as to why they wouldn’t follow the rules.

Some who don’t value education/abusive who just can’t be asked to get up in the mornings (can’t imagine there are many if these).

Some may be the previously shielding or vulnerable, who are scared and feel forced to send their dc in. They’ve figured that if they are going to get it from anywhere it will be from the school, and so are giving up on trying to take precautions or are just trying to ignore it. I think this might actually be more parents than many realise.
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Legooo · 02/11/2020 12:03

@Sonnenscheins

Why damage the economy for a strategy that won’t work fast enough?

Do you not understand that the economy would suffer much more if we shut schools?

On the contrary, I don’t understand though why people think that a collapsed NHS would result in an improved economy.

The measures aren’t the only thing affecting the economy, the virus being widespread is. The worse it gets the more people will change their own spending/behaviour.

If the news starts reporting that a family of car crash victims died, only because there were no NHS resources left for anything - do you think families will carry on driving as normal?

If a child dies of appendicitis because there were no beds, operating theatres or anaesthetists spare - do you think parents will start to be scared and want the virus numbers down as quickly as possible. Will they stop going out?

Lockdown and restrictions do negatively affect the economy, but so does a virus spiralling out of control.

We are fucked either way, and no one is entirely sure which path leads us to being less fucked.
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Stellaris22 · 02/11/2020 11:33

100% agree with the pp that said schools staying open depends on compliance outside of school.

Children's education has already been hugely disrupted, sacrificing activities outside of school is hugely important. My DD is going to school but we won't be going to playgrounds etc.

I genuinely don't understand what is so hard to understand about this. Schools NEED to stay open, mixing outside of school needs to stop for this to happen. Schools closing will happen if people are selfish.

We had a school email urging parents not to pressure their kids to 'not tell' their friends/teachers about socialising outside of school. I was shocked that parents would do this!

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ThornAmongstRoses · 02/11/2020 11:19

I think the only conclusion is that whatever we do (as individuals and government decisions) the virus is going nowhere, it can’t be controlled and we are screwed.

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Sonnenscheins · 02/11/2020 11:05

No, shutting everything including schools will be incredibly damaging to the economy, especially as school closures have unintended knock on effects.

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Redlocks28 · 02/11/2020 10:56

@Sonnenscheins

Why damage the economy for a strategy that won’t work fast enough?

Do you not understand that the economy would suffer much more if we shut schools?

Shutting everything including the schools for 3 weeks (especially when one of those weeks could have been half term) would be far less damaging to the economy that shutting just small businesses/hospitality for 8/12 weeks (with a day off for Christmas).
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Sonnenscheins · 02/11/2020 10:52

Why damage the economy for a strategy that won’t work fast enough?

Do you not understand that the economy would suffer much more if we shut schools?

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Ihatemyseleffordoingthis · 02/11/2020 10:26

@Foobydoo

100% agree - why has the government refused to consider any risk mitigation in schools?

Sadly I fear the answer is the current govt/leadership are only hanging on here - and trying to deliver what they think best suits popular opinion - until they deliver Brexit, then they will bugger off. Leaving someone else to pick up the mess. Hopefully a government of national unity which genuinely has the population's interests at heart.

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Foobydoo · 02/11/2020 10:00

@Sonnenscheins

How are other countries managing to keep them open?

Germany? France? Switzerland? Sweden? Ireland?

They're all managing to keep schools open.

Shouldn't we try a little harder?

These countries have spent money and planned for better mitigation in schools.
Many have classes of 15 or less, better transport two and from schools investment in ventilation, use of protective equipment, blended learning.
No other country bar Israel has tried to open schools in the way we have. That is why we are in a mess.
Short sightedness has been the theme throughout. Not wanting to spend money, which leads to needing to spend 10x as much later down the line. The lack of foresight from the government is shocking.
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WhoWants2Know · 02/11/2020 09:57

See, RTB, I would honestly disagree that explaining WHY to an child is easy, and I also disagree that it's down to laziness on a parent's part.

Obviously you can tell a kid "Because that's the rules," or "because I say so." But to me that's the lazy option. Generally I try to get my kids to think about why rules are in place so they understand why following them is important. That's not as easy in this situation.

For example, if it's safe for my child to wait at the bus stop with her group of friends, safe to sit next to the same friends on the bus, share classrooms with those friends, eat lunch together, and it's still safe for them to ride the bus home together, WHY does it then become unsafe once they emerge together from the bus? They mustn't go on a walk together after school, because that's unsafe. They mustn't stop together for a game of football on the way home. Instead they'll go home and sit in their rooms and talk to each other on screens.

The truth is that it's not logically any less safe for them to stay in each other's company after school. The truth is that I'll get a fine if they DON'T go gather at school, and also if they DO gather afterwards.

I follow the rules to the letter. I'm not making any excuses not to comply, because I will comply. I don't have to agree with the logic, though.

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Legooo · 02/11/2020 09:48

Doctor on BBC news just said that obviously, from a virologist standpoint, that it would be better to close schools. But that due to other reasons they were going to ‘give it a go’ at keeping them open.

I think a large swath of the public will be pretty angry about that. If the threat to the NHS is so great that we may not be able to get help for appendicitis/heart attacks/car crash so soon that they have to stop seeing their family the why wait? Why damage the economy for a strategy that won’t work fast enough? Why wear out people good will by doing something harmful that they already know will not be enough?

Why play this game of chicken by having an ineffective lockdown?

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lazylinguist · 02/11/2020 09:36

Dh and I are teachers and have dc at secondary school. We comply with all the rules and don't let our dc break them either. But I have to admit, I don't really understand the 'shut everything else to keep schools open' thing, or the logic behind why kids can't socialise with the very friends they've been sitting right next to with no masks on all day.

There isn't some kind of Covid-proof fence around schools. Kids mix with each other at school with no masks or social distancing, then go home to their parents and siblings. Lockdown might reduce the chance of kids picking up the virus outside of school, but any who do pick it up will still pass it around to other kids within school, who will then take ot home to their families.

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ClaireP20 · 02/11/2020 09:20

100% agree with you OP.

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3littlewords · 02/11/2020 09:19

All these saying I'm going to ignore the restrictions because schools are open will be the same ones in a months time still blaming schools that infections are rising! And are probably the same people who are aghast at all returning to normality and just getting on with it . It seems we can't win 🤷‍♀️

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TheKeatingFive · 02/11/2020 09:17

Mask wearing is clearly not the ONLY difference

There are NO differences from pre Covid in my sons primary school except for hand sanitising and more outdoor time (perfectly possible to replicate).

The extra money is primarily to recruit extra supply in case of teachers out sick. Which is useful overall, but wouldn’t have an impact on infection rates.

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Redlocks28 · 02/11/2020 09:14

@TheKeatingFive

You aren't comparing like with like

The ONLY difference in Ireland is mask wearing in secondary (which certainly doesn’t look like it’s being enforced in the school beside me, but hey ho).

So do that.

No need to close.

From another post.

Mask wearing is clearly not the ONLY difference.
The effect of schools staying open on people's compliance
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walksen · 02/11/2020 09:14

I've stuck to the rules pretty strictly and cut contact with my support bubble when cases exploded at my workplaces. This was a good thing as they still had a half term when I subsequently tested positive.

But now I feel like the government does not give two shiny shits if school staff or kids catch it so why constantly put back your life when you have had it already and are almost certain to get it at work anyway

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Redlocks28 · 02/11/2020 09:13

@Sonnenscheins

How are other countries managing to keep them open?

Germany? France? Switzerland? Sweden? Ireland?

They're all managing to keep schools open.

Shouldn't we try a little harder?

Yes-they have invested large amounts of money into schools!

Maybe our government should try that. As that is looking unlikely though, the chances of our schools closing is increasing.
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TheKeatingFive · 02/11/2020 09:10

You aren't comparing like with like

The ONLY difference in Ireland is mask wearing in secondary (which certainly doesn’t look like it’s being enforced in the school beside me, but hey ho).

So do that.

No need to close.

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EvilPea · 02/11/2020 09:08

No I agree.
It’s difficult to get your head around the restrictions when the kids share the same classroom or even desk all day. But yet aren’t allowed to outside of school.

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Someonesayroadtrip · 02/11/2020 09:08

Out school has quite a much mixed demographic but certainly some area of high deprivation where the attitude definitely is that if they are mixing in school then they can mix outside.

I do think often times it's the mixed messages that reduce people's compliance, such as the eat out schemes where again in this area I heard people see that as a signal it was all over and done with and life should return to normal.

I think the school thing is similar.

I also think it psychologically redistributes risk, the reality is that school children and school staff are at no greater risk than they would be if lockdown didn't occur, in fact if it has any impact then it would be less risk, however, it very much feels like, and I feel this way, that children and school staff are left out on the front line with all the risk! I think it's hard for school staff to feel safe when others in different jobs have been furloughed AGAIN.

I think it's complicated but I see both sides of the coin, personally I feel in Wales, we should have shit schools. We had two weeks and one they were already off, given how short our lockdown is I think it should have been as severe as possible to have the maximum affect. For the sake of one extra week, but the English 4 weeks would create far greater disruptions.

Would help if our governments weren't just trying to out do each other and united.

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TheKeatingFive · 02/11/2020 09:08

Shouldn't we try a little harder?

Or even just try?

There are no european precedents for shutting schools for more than a week this time (as far as I’m aware). How would it be justified?

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Iwantacookie · 02/11/2020 09:07

I think the biggest problem is people are pissed off they have to go to work (aka the boring bit of life) yet cant meet up with friends (the fun part of life) if you chuck uc on top of that where life is a constant struggle I can certainly see people saying fuck it and breaking the rules.
What I think is madness is my primary aged child is going to be playing football tonight against another team. In his team alone theres 4 different primary schools that's just the players on his team.
Although I think schools should stay open. I dont see the point in them staying open operating the way they are.

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