The effect of schools staying open on people's compliance

[bringbackCabanas]

I DO NOT want schools to close. I'm happy to send my kids in and will continue to do so.

But, the amount of times I hear, or read on here, "well if they sit at school together all day then they can do x y z outside of school" or "my child is mixing with x amount of people five days a week so what's the point of following the rules?"

Basically that if schools are still open then it's not really a "lockdown" and not everyone will take it seriously.

Its a shame as we are asking teachers to do somethink high risk on the understanding that all the other risks are reduced.
Some people just seem very all or nothing. If you cant be 100% covid secure then dont bother at all seems to be the view.

Exactly this!

It's not all or nothing. If we all work hard and limit all socialising outside our family, then rates will come down, albeit more slowly.

For those of us without kids it seems we are being punished and our lives curtailed so that those who were breaking the rules (sixth formers have highest rate currently) can continue to spread it. So I don't think people are going to comply as much - we won't socialise but will go out walking further afield and will see our young adult DD's who live independently but are financially dependent (university) if they want.

Many people won't try to think critically if the result of doing so does not gratify their own immediate interests.

I think the government is missing a trick by failing to ram home the "risk budget" message. If we are going to keep the R rate down, we need to limit the occasions on which people risk infection. The government has chosen quite correctly to "spend" most of the risk budget on schools and universities, and so there is not enough budget left to allow other non- essential interaction. It's not a difficult concept to grasp, but people don't want to.

I have 2 school aged DC and DH is a teacher. We have been limiting our non-school contacts (even when restrictions would have allowed more) to reduce the risk that our DC have to miss school, that their classmates have to isolate, and that DH school are missing a teacher.

I know lots of people who have taken the view that if their DC are mixing with other children at school then it's no different if they also mix with all their friends (in different bubbles etc) outside school, have sleepovers etc. I also know quite a few people without children who claim that it must be fine for them to have weekends together with extended family (across 3 or 4 households) since there are not as many of them as in a school bubble so it must be OK for them to form a sort of bubble too. No undertstanding of the idea that each contact is an additional risk, mixing multiple households leads to exponential infection growth, and the notion that schools are being kept open not because they are risk free but because the benefit for society of keeping children in education outweighs the risk.

Not to mention the fact that whilst schools are open a lot of employers are expecting staff to be in the office rather than wfh (I know of several people who in my- and their- opinion could easily wfh but employers claim it's better to be in the office and the workplace is 'Covid safe' so no reason to not be there).

@Sonnenscheins

Do people honestly don't understand that we're locking down parts of our society so that hospitals and a can remain open?

This is what France, Germany and many other countries are doing. I thought it was obvious

It would seem many people are either too dim to understand such a simple concept, or are deliberately looking for reasons to break the rules.

Not to mention the fact that whilst schools are open a lot of employers are expecting staff to be in the office rather than wfh (I know of several people who in my- and their- opinion could easily wfh but employers claim it's better to be in the office and the workplace is 'Covid safe' so no reason to not be there).

This is what’s happening at my dad’s workplace.

They have also said they aren’t going to bother with furlough because it’s so much hassle working out staff rotas and the all administration that comes with it, (staffing and payroll stuff) that they’ve said it’s not worth it just for 4 weeks, so everyone is just back in work as normal.

It might slow the rate down but numbers are going to increase until it gets to the point they have to close. And then for even longer. Again too little, too late.

I agree this sacrificing everything is pointless as it'll just go on longer with schools still open. Should have made the October break at least two weeks.
At least if they went to blended learning there would be more incentive for people to follow the rules as then schools might be seen as safer. At the moment many people's view is they are sacrificing for no real benefit.

@movingonup20

For those of us without kids it seems we are being punished and our lives curtailed so that those who were breaking the rules (sixth formers have highest rate currently) can continue to spread it. So I don't think people are going to comply as much - we won't socialise but will go out walking further afield and will see our young adult DD's who live independently but are financially dependent (university) if they want.

Didn't many children do this for months earlier in the year? Let's face it they had no say in the matter whatsoever, they couldn't choose to ignore the rules even if they wanted too. Was it to benefit their health? Was it bollocks it was for everyone else! They did it for months without question, you are being asked to do it for another 4 weeks! I hate this attitude of ive got no young kids i shouldn't have to sacrifice, maybe the children who missed months of school and were kept mainly indoors should have revolted and said I shouldn't have to sacrifice my freedoms for old people dying I've never met. They didn't though did they? They put up shut up and got on with much to the detriment of themselves

The government has chosen quite correctly to "spend" most of the risk budget on schools and universities, and so there is not enough budget left to allow other non- essential interaction. It's not a difficult concept to grasp, but people don't want to.

Yes I agree.

It's a shame really

It's not easy to explain to a kid why they can't hang out at the park with the same people they have spent the day with at school.

At the moment many people's view is they are sacrificing for no real benefit.

No benefit of education the next generation?

See, I think that is not the view in countries like Switzerland or Germany.

I hope the UK Government sees the importance of keeping schools open at all costs!

No government in this land will tell me who i can and cannot see!

At the moment many people's view is they are sacrificing for no real benefit.

No benefit of education the next generation?

I think people’s view is that regardless of ways people are being restricted, whilst childcare and education facilities remain open then it’s very unlikely to have any real impact on the infection rates.

So some people may think what’s the point of them making sacrifices when those sacrifices won’t make any difference to what will be the end result anyway.

I think people are really, really hoping that the current measures are going to have a huge impact on numbers, but many people think it’s not going to make any difference at all - especially in just four weeks.

IME, having been in enhanced lockdown since August, there is a lot of selective application of "the rules". People are upset at being told that they must go to work but not do any of the things that make life pleasurable, and either do not understand, or choose not to, the concept of cumulative risk.

There has been lots of talk of "well, I mix with X many people at work/school so seeing family won't make any difference".
and misapplying the idea of "bubbles" when they're not needed for childcare or support of a single person household. One colleague told me about how strictly she'd adhering to the rules, mentioning three "bubbles" she's in. I know Cummings is old news, and MNers hate him being dragged up, but the Government being forced to peddle the line that we can use our common sense really seems to have been disastrous.

@Sausage1989

No government in this land will tell me who i can and cannot see!

And here lies the problem ladies and gentlemen!

No one wants to comply anymore, so as soon as 1 person says fuck it im not doing it, someone else does the same and someone else and someone else........

I think people are really, really hoping that the current measures are going to have a huge impact on numbers

Hoping isn't enough.

They need to act and follow the rules.

No one wants to comply anymore, so as soon as 1 person says fuck it im not doing it, someone else does the same and someone else and someone else........

People who don’t comply are those who wouldn’t comply anyway, not ones who don’t comply just because someone else isn’t.

I stick to the rules as best as I can, and I wouldn’t stop doing it just because my neighbour might choose not to.

No one wants to comply anymore, so as soon as 1 person says fuck it im not doing it, someone else does the same and someone else and someone else........

Well then we might as well have no lockdown at all. At least our economy will recover quicker.

And our children can stay in education - they're not much affected by the virus anyway!

whilst childcare and education facilities remain open then it’s very unlikely to have any real impact on the infection rates.

They’d do well to look at what’s happening with their nearest neighbours, ROI, where schools/childcare have remained open but cases are decreasing significantly.

covid19ireland-geohive.hub.arcgis.com/

A nice curve on here.

@WhoWants2Know

It's not easy to explain to a kid why they can't hang out at the park with the same people they have spent the day with at school.

No its easy. Its just that people are lazy and don't want to.

Every additional contact is a new opportunity that you wouldn't otherwise have to get 'tagged' or caught by the virus.

Usually if you see kids outside school their parent is there so thats an additional contact you could catch the virus from.

Not hard.

But then there are far too many parents hard of thinking who want to ignore the rules anyway so just use the kids as an excuse to get what they want.

”I think people are really, really hoping that the current measures are going to have a huge impact on number”

Hoping isn't enough.

They need to act and follow the rules.

It’s the hopeful people who are following the rules.

It’s the other group (maybe the more realistic group) are the ones who won’t comply with the rules whilst childcare and all schools and universities are open.

If its not 'well they see each other in school' it'd probably be some other bullshit excuse anyway.

@ThornAmongstRoses

No one wants to comply anymore, so as soon as 1 person says fuck it im not doing it, someone else does the same and someone else and someone else........

People who don’t comply are those who wouldn’t comply anyway, not ones who don’t comply just because someone else isn’t.

I stick to the rules as best as I can, and I wouldn’t stop doing it just because my neighbour might choose not to.

people feel justified in their decisions not to comply if others aren't either.

I dont want to stick to the rules, who does? ,but I will

From people I know/things on Facebook, a lot of the lack of compliance is due to people thinking the numbers won't come down enough whilst schools stay open, and therefore we're doing this "for nothing".

Personally, I think if they'd brought the lockdown forward by a few weeks and closed the schools for 2 weeks over half term with them going back half way through lockdown then people I know would have taken it a lot more seriously. Even though kids would be mixing, I guess the thought being that they wouldn't have been anyway for 2 weeks prior.

Its just a bit frustrating to see people say "well its not going to work so I'm not going to even try".

@Smelliethenelephant

OK, so for all the people who trot out the same lazy arguments, day in day out, about closing everything else to allow schools to stay open, it will not work that way. Let me tell you about our secondary school: A couple of cases in year 12 - a few kids sent home to isolate. One is presumaly asymptomatic, stays at home but siblings in year 10 and year 8 still attend school. Guess what? Cases in year 10. A few kids in year 10 sent home, one is asymptomatic, sibling in year 9 attends school.... guess what? Do you see what I am getting at here? This is not fantasy this is exactly what has happened in our secondary school. In year 11 alone there have been at least 20 cases, could easily be many, many more by now as school has now stopped informing parents. Transmission is 100% occurring in the classroom and wearing masks in a corridor is just a distraction.

If you have a cluster of cases in your school they are not going to reduce by closing the gym and the hairdressers down the road. They will continue to spread via families and siblings until they run out of hosts. This won't be every school of course, but it will be many. A 2 to 3 week school closure with everything else closed would enable a reset that allows kids to continue full-time in school. Anything else is just nonsense.

Yes this, this is what is happening. I wonder if the posters who do not see this are in tier one areas. The schools in my tier 3 area have been doing the covid hoaky coaky since mid September and it feels a bit like playing Russian roulette for those of us that are clinically vulnerable. Covid patients who are struggling to breath are already being turned away from the hospitals near me unless they are turning blue.