Should we submit to the lockdown or fight back?

[pontypridd]

Just this.

I feel scared writing it. I know I'll be flamed.

But how long can people live like this for? I've lost so many family over the years - my mum too when I was young. We all get sick and die.

We can't lock up the whole world because of Covid. Are we just all going to submit? Or do we, should we fight for our freedom?

@Leonardo87

"We have another few weeks to push through. Keep going*

It's nice to be encouraging - but we all know it isn't just "another few weeks". It's going to be months, and months, and months more.

It was going to be "just a few weeks" in March. Look where we are now.

The government has now created a situation in which they make whatever decree they like, without parliamentary scrutiny, and we have to submit to it. It is indeed totalitarian.

@Dan1980 talks sense.

@TheSandman

i read most years about hospitals being overrun , it never happens but even if it did - why not build more of them which surely cant cost more than the billions wasted on lockdowns, track and trace failed apps etc

Hospitals take YEARS to build. People are dying of Covid NOW.

So, please, invent a time machine, go back 20 years and tell them to start planning (so we don't have to scrabble around making it up on the hoof in a crisis - and getting it 90% wrong - like have been.

Hospitals dont take "years to build " at all particularly ones that could be used to treat covid

[quote Cornettoninja]@Dan1980 I didn’t bring up euthanasia as sarcasm.

For your scenario obviously in an emergency age is a massive factor in prioritising treatment. That’s not the scenario at play here though is it?[/quote]
It is really the scenario as you are basically killing younger people with lockdown measures to purely focus on 5% of those aged over 80 who will die from it. It isn't just about avoiding parties like some of the idiots on here keep banging on about- its about losing your house, unable to access GPs, economic issues causing families to go hungry etc etc

The general consensus is that the economic impact is worst if you don't control the virus

So if you want more people to lose their jobs and homes, go ahead and fight for no controls and no lockdowns.

All the countries who did proper suppression are living almost normally, that includes democracies like New Zealand.

@midgebabe

The general consensus is that the economic impact is worst if you don't control the virus

So if you want more people to lose their jobs and homes, go ahead and fight for no controls and no lockdowns.

All the countries who did proper suppression are living almost normally, that includes democracies like New Zealand.

New Zealand has a much lower population density than the Uk so you are comparing apples and Oranges.. I could say look at sweden who had no lockdown at all using that criteria which is doing much better than the Uk.

You say "The general consensus is that the economic impact is worse if you don't control the virus" ... consensus of who? Nearly every economist would refute that statement as it's clearly not the case. How many deaths have there been with BLM marches, raves, beach parties that we have seen with no social distancing and how many hospitals in the Uk have actually been overwhelmed ?

Under 200 deaths again today - leaving covid aside an average of 1400 people per day die each day from all other covid issues so the hospitals being overstretched actually hasnt happened once despite social distancing being a myth in most supermarkets for months and people in pubs with no masks drinking every day

The message is " hospitals are at risk of being overwhelmed" but they say that every year..

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/dec/08/nhs-hospitals-emergency-measures-winter-crisis

The way to "fight back" against the virus is to take precautions to stop it spreading!

The economists say lockdown should not happen, but they do not say that the virus should not be controlled. They say that you should avoid lockdown, lockdown is a failure to control the virus by other means. Which is true.

Look at the graphs readily available showing economic impact and deaths fro covid, or the same data for US states and the Spanish flu. Lots of different countries with a range of population densities. The unifying factor seems to be a greater social awareness and greater care of others, less focus on the rights of the individuals

@Kazzyhoward

The way to "fight back" against the virus is to take precautions to stop it spreading!

so we all take " precautions " and a month later it starts again. The rules aren't even followed or understood by the government ministers so the idea we are all going to emerge from cupboards in 4 weeks and it will solve anything is laughable

@m0therofdragons

Okay, I really need a mn break. I can’t deal with the level of idiocy. It’s not just about you dying it’s about putting doctors in a position where they would have to play God and choose who gets a ventilator and who doesn’t, then they have to live with that trauma. No doctor wants to make that call ever. So fighting back actually means behaving like a self absorbed selfish prick.

Haven’t we established that ventilators aren’t great for this virus

I agree, OP. We shouldn't be accepting another lockdown but I feel so helpless and don't know what else to do.

It is just deferring the problem.

so we all take " precautions " and a month later it starts again

Isn’t the idea just to slow the spread though?

Unless there’s a vaccination it will always be there it’s just slowing it down so people aren’t all off sick at one time, the hospitals aren’t more overstretched than they already are and to better protect the most vulnerable.

That’s why a lot of experts believe a shorter lockdown should have happened before now.

@midgebabe

The economists say lockdown should not happen, but they do not say that the virus should not be controlled. They say that you should avoid lockdown, lockdown is a failure to control the virus by other means. Which is true.

Look at the graphs readily available showing economic impact and deaths fro covid, or the same data for US states and the Spanish flu. Lots of different countries with a range of population densities. The unifying factor seems to be a greater social awareness and greater care of others, less focus on the rights of the individuals

Comparing spanish flu with covid is again comparing apples and oranges. Spanish flu killed 3% of the worlds population which in todays numbers would be 225 million people focusing on children and any age group. Covid has killed less than 1.5 million with an average age of death near the end of life at 82 so you can't compare the two trying to extrapolate anything.

What graphs should I be looking at as they all contradict each other. Cambridge public health for the Uk predicts over 4000 deaths per day , sage predicts under 1000 and LSHTM predicts under 2000. Maybe we should consult the one put up by sacked minister paddy pantsdown which said something else again or just pick one out to believe like a random lottery ball.

For every study saying lockdown saves thousands of lives there are other studies saying the opposite but regardless of what side of the fence you sit on it boils down to basic human ability to control your own health and your own family. No government should be adopting a totalitarian stance ordering people not to see their own children, grand children taking away a human beings right to make an informed choice over their own lives and personal risks to loved ones.. you're going down a very dangerous road where you surrender all free will to the state.

Would you support being microchipped to help track and trace as that is the next logical step

No government should be adopting a totalitarian stance ordering people not to see their own children, grand children taking away a human beings right to make an informed choice over their own lives and personal risks to loved ones.. you're going down a very dangerous road where you surrender all free will to the state.

I don’t think we are having to surrender all free will.
We just have to not go to the pub/ non-essential shops for a bit. It’s rubbish not seeing your family but you can still give them a ring and if you’re a single person you can join a bubble. We can still exercise freely and go shopping etc. So apart from businesses loosing money (which I hope the government will fund) I can’t see the big deal and I don’t feel like any rights have been taken away from me.

Apart from things like pubs, sports clubs and restaurants what do people feel like they are missing out on so much that they can’t go without for a few weeks?
I’m genuinely interested and not being sarcastic.

It's because this could go on for months. There's no guarantee it will end on 2nd Dec, and it's different to the first lockdown because it's cold and wet outside.

You say " we are just not being asked to go to the pub/essential shops for a bit" but for many the consequences of lockdowns end up with much more severe repercussions than that.

There isn't really any government financial package that can help 60 odd million people if many of them are locked down. It's not financially viable or practical meaning many will lose their homes , jobs, health and lives ultimately with direct /indirect consequences.

I doubt many would be so vociferous with their objections if it was just 4 weeks but lockdowns have been in place for much of the Uk for months and the idea this will be a final lockdown is fairly idealistic and unrealistic

@MoonJelly

Has anyone actually asked the elderly what they wish to do instead of people automatically assuming they all want to be holed away from friends and family with relatives determined to preserve life at " all costs"?

The average age of covid death is above natural life expectancy at 82 years old so the idea that it targets huge numbers of the vulnerable younger people is a myth or the average age of death wouldn't be higher than the lifespan a human can expect to live. Therefore we come to the argument of what is best for an elderly person and whether destroying the lives of millions of people to protect predominantly this age group is sensible.

If I were this age and were offered the choice between a reasonable possibility of dying naturally, and the near certainty of a horrible, painful death from Covid by drowning in my own secretions, somehow I don't think I'd be offering myself up as a sacrifice to Covid.

Apologies because I don't know how to choose a particular part of a post to quote...

Anyway MoonJelly I'd be interested to hear what you think "dying naturally" involves. Do you think most people go peacefully to sleep aged 90 and just don't wake up the next morning? Have you never had someone close to you die:?

I get that people are worried about getting locked down for more than 4 weeks. They have left it way too late again to have another lockdown which means it’ll drag on for longer.
But a second lockdown was always on the cards as we were told right from the beginning it would be worse during the winter months.

I lost my job just before lockdown which was not great but I was able to get universal credit and I wasn’t allowed to get evicted so although at the time it was stressful I still felt things could have been a lot worse.
And as a lockdown was inevitable then it’s just something I had to get on with.
I am employed now but I know I could lose my job again which I don’t want to do but I know a lockdowns going to happen whether it’s now or in 6 months time I’m just grateful we live in a country where we can still do a lot of things like exercising outdoors.

We need a longer lockdown than a month and rigorously enforced.

Meaning what ? Martial law ?

@Flutter12

I get that people are worried about getting locked down for more than 4 weeks. They have left it way too late again to have another lockdown which means it’ll drag on for longer. But a second lockdown was always on the cards as we were told right from the beginning it would be worse during the winter months.

I lost my job just before lockdown which was not great but I was able to get universal credit and I wasn’t allowed to get evicted so although at the time it was stressful I still felt things could have been a lot worse.
And as a lockdown was inevitable then it’s just something I had to get on with.
I am employed now but I know I could lose my job again which I don’t want to do but I know a lockdowns going to happen whether it’s now or in 6 months time I’m just grateful we live in a country where we can still do a lot of things like exercising outdoors.

Being able to move around outdoors for exercise isn't really something we should be thankful for unless we are prisoners. That said as you say, many countries have lockdown measures even more draconian than ours which I don't agree with either.

It really isn't about the 4 week lockdown, it's about the end game- what is the ultimate goal? The vaccine talk is hot air really as we have no vaccine for the closest known corona virus ( the common cold ) and as we know from recent medical studies on numerous blood samples; there is no long term immunity from it as antibody counts drop after infection. As a vaccine relies on the immunity factor by small amounts of the disease being given to patients to trigger an immune response, if immunity isnt a given neither is a vaccine

I agree OP.
But you won’t get any joy here.

If you're signing people up for a revolt OP you can add me to your list.