Covid measures 'a monument of collective hysteria and folly'

[RonaLisa]

The Guardian is not my natural habitat, but this is spot on.

It needs to be shouted from the rooftops.

The restrictions are one thing. Them being imposed with no scrutiny, debate or clear end point is something else

We may need restrictions but the rule of law still applies.

@Chloemol

So basically the whole world is hysterical, is that what they are saying?

Yep. Worldwide governments. And those medical and scientific experts at the WHO...

@Sheepandcow
But I'm saying that it is very unclear that lockdowns save lives but lockdowns do almost certainly reduce life expectancy, not necessarily right now but in future.

Long term unemployment and poverty reduce life expectancy. This is well studied. So even if lockdown does save a life from covid, if at the same time it knocks ten years off someone else's life due to them being left jobless and in poverty, there is no gain from lockdown (unless you think a covid death matters more than a non-covid death). But lockdown also removes other fundamental rights so is worse in that respect.

You may well disagree with me as to whether lockdowns do more harm than good. It is a very complex question and basically unknowable at this point in time. I am just saying that if you believe as I do - that lockdowns probably do more harm than good even if we are only taking life expectancy and health into account - it is not selfish to believe that we shouldn't do them.

Actually it's very clear that proper lockdowns do save lives and the economy. As Australia, New Zealand, and the Isle of Man have demonstrated.

@SheepandCow
I can certainly understand why New Zealand has pursued an elimination strategy in its circumstances. But I don’t think we can extrapolate from that to say that the UK could eliminate covid from the position it is currently in by locking down and that this would do more good than harm. If we did pursue that kind of strategy we would be taking the risk of causing huge current and future suffering for no real long term gain.

I could equally point to France and Spain having very harsh lockdowns which drove numbers way down but have left both countries now in basically the position they started in but a lot poorer having inflicted huge suffering on their populations. I don’t think you can look around the world and say that there is such clear evidence that lockdowns work in a way which does more good than harm that removing fundamental freedoms for them is justified.

Chessie, you recognise these freedoms will and have be returned? Where I live, life is practically normal now. We just still socially distance, practice good hand hygiene, and wear masks in health care settings and where we can't distance easily. We also can't travel out of the country. Other than that - sports, shopping, theatre, cinema, restaurants, weddings, family visits- all can happen. You are being alarmist.

[quote PicsInRed]Steve Baker, MP (Conservative), "this is how liberty dies" - watch the video, it's compelling, chilling actually.

More and more perfectly normal, staid, establishment types are raising the alarm - something is terribly wrong and we need to oppose it before our entire way of life is changed permanently.

news.sky.com/video/sophy-ridge-this-is-how-liberty-dies-says-steve-baker-mp-12083185[/quote]
I am pretty sure that they are raising the alarm because of business and the economy rather than because of civil liberties.

@Chloemol

So basically the whole world is hysterical, is that what they are saying?

Yes. I'd say they are. I'm not saying that Covid 19 isn't a really serious illness for some people as it clearly can be.

However, the common cold can be extremely serious in some very clinically vulnerable people, of whom my own Dad is one (advanced COPD and heart failure).

The perpetual lock down and open up cycle on which we seem to have embarked is not sustainable long term as it trashes economies and people's livelihoods.

[quote Chessie678]@SheepandCow
I can certainly understand why New Zealand has pursued an elimination strategy in its circumstances. But I don’t think we can extrapolate from that to say that the UK could eliminate covid from the position it is currently in by locking down and that this would do more good than harm. If we did pursue that kind of strategy we would be taking the risk of causing huge current and future suffering for no real long term gain.

I could equally point to France and Spain having very harsh lockdowns which drove numbers way down but have left both countries now in basically the position they started in but a lot poorer having inflicted huge suffering on their populations. I don’t think you can look around the world and say that there is such clear evidence that lockdowns work in a way which does more good than harm that removing fundamental freedoms for them is justified.[/quote]
I get why New Zealand did what they did. They did very well.

What now though with Covid 19 endemic in many other countries? A vaccine may be some way off and efficacy is not guaranteed. Surely they can't keep their borders closed to people indefinitely and live in a sort of splendid isolation long term? That would keep whole industries suppressed and mean that those who have family living in other countries will remain unable to see them.

Surely they can't keep their borders closed to people indefinitely and live in a sort of splendid isolation long term?

Don't know about NZ dates, but Australia is keeping its borders closed until late 2021.

Australia's borders will remain closed until late 2021, Treasurer Josh Frydenberg has said in his post-budget speech at the National Press Club on Wednesday. International tourists and students will have to wait almost a year as Australia is unlikely to re-open its international borders until the latter part of 2021.

@cbt944

Surely they can't keep their borders closed to people indefinitely and live in a sort of splendid isolation long term?

Don't know about NZ dates, but Australia is keeping its borders closed until late 2021.

Australia's borders will remain closed until late 2021, Treasurer Josh Frydenberg has said in his post-budget speech at the National Press Club on Wednesday. International tourists and students will have to wait almost a year as Australia is unlikely to re-open its international borders until the latter part of 2021.

Yes, and I get why. However, that doesn't mean that by late 2021 (or whatever arbitrary timescale any government sets) the virus will be under total control in the rest of the world.

There probably isn't a perfect solution. They could possibly eliminate the virus in their own country for now, but when borders do eventually reopen there will remain the possibility that it will re-emerge.

One of the more problematic implications of Sumption's argument is for whom the personal risk is greatest. And that is ethnic minorities, old people, people with existing chronic conditions or disabilities and frontline workers. The pandemic reinforces existing inequalities and impacts those who work to help others - doctors, nurses, caters, transport workers and ambulance staff to band a few

So I guess for people not in those groups managing personal risk can be a choice. However the point about taking state action is to manage collective risk and the impact on others. If we are not in those vulnerable groups I guess it's quite easy to put our liberty above our safety. Not so easy for those who then have to sacrifice their liberty or jobs to enable others' freedom.

It's tricky. I'm not happy about how university students have been locked up and are paying for the pleasure but I would also not support leaving care home residents to die without care because care workers exercised their personal choice not to put themselves in harms' way. Unless we started paying frontline workers a premium to take that risk?

RedToothBrush hmm yes really. As well as chronic underfunding no doubt. But I am not always wrong.

Guernsey hsnfled track and trace better and in the end pretty much managed elimination. Most of their cases were in first wave and with strict quarantine.
I have not been to Guernsey but imagine it is very different to our overpopulated Towns and Cities.

Hmmmm he has some useful things to say but I’m not a fan of libertarianism in general.

I think there are no right answers with the pandemic and only time will tell if the options taken were the right ones.

People quoting libertarians like Steve Baker saying they prioritise individual liberty as though this means anything. Sigh.

@Northernsoulgirl45

Guernsey hsnfled track and trace better and in the end pretty much managed elimination. Most of their cases were in first wave and with strict quarantine. I have not been to Guernsey but imagine it is very different to our overpopulated Towns and Cities.

I should imagine having a very small population which is psychically isolated would be a pretty big help. There is less possible people to end up contact tracing.

This thread is bonkers. I’ve never seen such a clear case of cognitive dissonance before.

People quibbling over whether 45,000 or 55,000 people have died. It’s still tens of thousands.

People quibbling over restrictions and then not sticking to them anyway. The reason why this is so drawn out and painful is that most of this country don’t believe in doing anything for the good of the country as a whole. It’s all ‘my holiday’ and ‘my birthday party’.

The reason why people have lost their jobs and the economic mess is getting worse and worse is that the government chose the middle ground because they didn’t want to upset the kind of people who are moaning on this thread. You are your own worst enemies. Countries who got on top of this straight away and did full lockdowns are faring better.

Letting this rage out of control will only cause getter economic and personal pain in the long run. This stupid middle ground we have taken seems to be the worst way.

@ContraIndicated

People quoting libertarians like Steve Baker saying they prioritise individual liberty as though this means anything. Sigh.

This.

Steve Baker lives in lala land much of the time. He has some point on liberalism and freedom but he's also spent the last few years trying to crush disagreement through authoritarian behaviour and the very concept of compromise which is also central to liberalism.

He wants to have his cake and eat it when it suits him.

should imagine having a very small population which is psychically isolated would be a pretty big help. There is less possible people to end up contact tracing.

Yes and that's another reason why they are in such a goof position.

@BelleSausage

This thread is bonkers. I’ve never seen such a clear case of cognitive dissonance before.

People quibbling over whether 45,000 or 55,000 people have died. It’s still tens of thousands.

People quibbling over restrictions and then not sticking to them anyway. The reason why this is so drawn out and painful is that most of this country don’t believe in doing anything for the good of the country as a whole. It’s all ‘my holiday’ and ‘my birthday party’.

The reason why people have lost their jobs and the economic mess is getting worse and worse is that the government chose the middle ground because they didn’t want to upset the kind of people who are moaning on this thread. You are your own worst enemies. Countries who got on top of this straight away and did full lockdowns are faring better.

Letting this rage out of control will only cause getter economic and personal pain in the long run. This stupid middle ground we have taken seems to be the worst way.

What ‘middle ground’ would that be? We were locked down for MONTHS. Children received no education for 6 months. Entire industries have died and millions will be unemployed. What the fuck are you on about??

The only thing that could have been worse for me than lockdown (financially, emotionally, mentally, practically) would be one of my children dying (not specifically of Covid - for any reason at all).

What about living with the knowledge that people were being left to die when they could be saved? Or, living with the fear that if you need an ambulance it’s going to take hours, or there will be no room in ICU should you require treatment. Anyone can trip and fall and end up needing intensive care. Even you OP.

As PP pointed out, it’s not about individual risk. It’s the collective risk of the NHS being overwhelmed to the point it breaks down and we are left to fend for ourselves if ill or in an accident.

It’s always been about trying to level off the curve so that the impact on the NHS and related services (e.g funeral homes) was near to manageable and that the impact on the economy was lessened. There are numerous accounts out there of the lived experience for nurses and doctors - even with the measures it was/is grim. If everyone was ill at the same time services would struggle and the economy fair as badly or possibly worse than it is.

It’s a difficult balancing act and one I wouldn’t want to be in charge of.

Borris and his cronies have done a shockingly bad job IMO but doing nothing would have been worse. Not sacking DC was a nail in the coffin in terms of public good will and conformity.

In terms of democracy being eroded - well that is true. But it was already happening. The likes of Dominic Cummings and Aaron Banks etc, the interference of Russia, in the Brexit and Election votes showed that. Money and powerful lobbying has too much influence. Not to mention the rolling back of our civil liberties undertaken by Blair in the 90s.

If we are not careful, we are on our way to totalitarianism - which I don’t want and probably very few would want. But I do think the powers to enforce lockdown were needed. You clearly can’t rely on people making the right short term choices for the greater good (climate change for example) and so legislation is then needed.

We have the power though. One thing we can do at the next election is:
Read party manifestos directly and listen to politicians directly rather than rely on media sound bites and easily manipulated social media.

Ignoring Covid and not following guidelines will not address the issue of the erosion of democracy and would only serve to put us all at greater risk.

The problem in the uk is made worse by economic inequality. We didn't want to put in longer initial lockdown restrictions because of how close to the brink many were. We thought we were doing better than we were and over estimated how successful track and trace would be. Then no one wanted to admit that.

It wasn't about a middle way as such, at least at first. It was about completely fucking the communication strategy with dreadful mixed messaging and examples of hypocrisy and then fucking the actual restrictions and control measures we had.

The middle ground we ended up in is due to lack of competence and leadership more than a deliberate middle way policy. Its a failure of the those things that enable a middle way thats the issue...

@BelleSausage

This thread is bonkers. I’ve never seen such a clear case of cognitive dissonance before.

People quibbling over whether 45,000 or 55,000 people have died. It’s still tens of thousands.

People quibbling over restrictions and then not sticking to them anyway. The reason why this is so drawn out and painful is that most of this country don’t believe in doing anything for the good of the country as a whole. It’s all ‘my holiday’ and ‘my birthday party’.

The reason why people have lost their jobs and the economic mess is getting worse and worse is that the government chose the middle ground because they didn’t want to upset the kind of people who are moaning on this thread. You are your own worst enemies. Countries who got on top of this straight away and did full lockdowns are faring better.

Letting this rage out of control will only cause getter economic and personal pain in the long run. This stupid middle ground we have taken seems to be the worst way.

This

It's stupidity at it's finest. Darwin Award material. I'm so tired of this shit. I wish you could block individuals, I'm so tired of reading justification after justification as to why some people are screwing everyone else over because they're too selfish to do what's right.

What about living with the knowledge that people were being left to die when they could be saved?

But we live with that knowledge every day, or should. I've said this before but 5 million children die globally each year due to poverty. We could have changed that but we weren't interested.
No-one has explained why I should be more or especially upset about covid deaths.