Covid measures 'a monument of collective hysteria and folly'

[RonaLisa]

The Guardian is not my natural habitat, but this is spot on.

It needs to be shouted from the rooftops.

@BelleSausage

Riiiiggghhht.

What do you suggest we do then? Just let tens of thousands die and the health service fall over.

It is happening. 310 deaths recorded today. And before you ask- those were COVID deaths. The counting was changed so people with positive tests that subsequently died of other things aren’t counted.

Someone else had probably already said this, but do you have a lik for that nugget of made up information please?

If I tested positive with no symptoms and decided to spend my isolation period clearing the gutters and fell off the ladder and died, I would still be in the daily COVID figures.

If anyone has a link that says different I would love to see it

JS87 but that doesn’t explain why MH assessments didn’t take place over the summer when hospitals weren’t overwhelmed and cases were low. We have a neighbour who is a hospital consultant - he was at home almost all summer because his routine clinics and planned ops were cancelled.

I have also heard that still births have increased because women have either been offered or too scared to attend ante-natal care.

The NHS won't be overwhelmed becsuse everything else is being cancelled. Where does that leave us a year from now? 2 hospitals here are doing no elective surgery for the second time this year. My minor surgery has been delayed from feb, my dad's hip replacement he has been waiting for for 3 years will now be at least another year, and in the news today a young kidney transplant patient with her second cancellation.

I think it depends very much on the definition of overwhelmed.

@amusedtodeath1

It doesn't make a blind bit of difference what kind of patients are being sent to nightingale. It still means there's too many sick people, but of course this has nothing to do with Covid.

So answer me this why is the Manchester Nightingale open if the other hospitals aren't struggling to find space? Did they just open it for fun? What other reason could there possibly be?

Because there are similar numbers of people being admitted to hospital as any October, but the hospitals are operating under different policies and procedures that previous years so can fit in and treat less patients because of COVID guidelines, even though hardly anyone is actually being admitted BECAUSE of COVID.

Being hospitalised having tested positive, and being hospitised specifically because of COVID are two very different things

Right ok, so it's perfectly normal and nothing to do with hospitals being crammed to capacity because of Covid patients.

It's October and the hospitals are full and it's nothing to do with Covid?

How do you fool yourselves into believing this stuff, is it the only way you can cope? I don't get it? How bad does this have to get before you lot take this seriously? It's right in front of you, it's literally everywhere and yet you won't see it.

@amusedtodeath1

Right ok, so it's perfectly normal and nothing to do with hospitals being crammed to capacity because of Covid patients.

It's October and the hospitals are full and it's nothing to do with Covid?

How do you fool yourselves into believing this stuff, is it the only way you can cope? I don't get it? How bad does this have to get before you lot take this seriously? It's right in front of you, it's literally everywhere and yet you won't see it.

How do hospital capacities now compare to the same date in 2017?

@tiredryesneedsleep no you wouldn't. It would be listed on the paperwork because it's a notifiable disease and has to be. Unless you have a particularly dim clinician it won't recorded as your cause of death, it is their judgement call to make. It's always been that way. Type cause of death xovid death certificates uk into Google and you get the govt's directive. Strangely on there, it doesn't say that a positive test should make covid the cause of death regardless.

Hospital capacity now is prob more than 2017 because everything is cancelled. If normal services had kept going then it would be higher. I looked for those figures but couldn't find them as another poster had claimed they were lower. She didn't have the link either.

"even though hardly anyone is actually being admitted BECAUSE of COVID."

"Being hospitalised having tested positive, and being hospitised specifically because of COVID are two very different things"

"We also consider the question of whether people are being hospitalised “with COVID” or “from COVID”. Having considered the age distribution, we estimate that the proportion admitted for other reasons but “with COVID” is no more than 1-in-7."
mobile.twitter.com/COVID19actuary/status/1321039546730094599

*If I tested positive with no symptoms and decided to spend my isolation period clearing the gutters and fell off the ladder and died, I would still be in the daily COVID figures.

If anyone has a link that says different I would love to see it*

If I died of COVID on day 29 onwards it wouldn't count so swings and roundabouts.

The daily figures are a guide but the Ons and excess death figures are probably more accurate and higher.

[quote housemdwaswrong]@tiredryesneedsleep no you wouldn't. It would be listed on the paperwork because it's a notifiable disease and has to be. Unless you have a particularly dim clinician it won't recorded as your cause of death, it is their judgement call to make. It's always been that way. Type cause of death xovid death certificates uk into Google and you get the govt's directive. Strangely on there, it doesn't say that a positive test should make covid the cause of death regardless.[/quote]
Link?

Even the BBC news says "have died in England within 28 days of providing a positive test"

The numbers might get adjusted down months after, but the figures published each day include ANY death where someone has tested positive in the last 28 days.

Show me anything that says different and I will apologise and eat my proverbial hat

Its not unusual for NHS beds to be at over 90 percent capacity at this time of year, it just isn't normally on the news

www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/bed-availability-and-occupancy/bed-data-overnight/

Ok I am sure people will say it's with COVID not of COVIDand most wird die within 6 months anyway etc etc but ONS figures higher and that doesn't include all those care home deaths before testing.

And ALL deaths from Covid after the 28 days are completely ignored in the figures. As a consequence a lot of Covid deaths are not included in the figures which should offset those who didn't die of Covid but were included.

Why focus on deaths though, there's long term health issues to consider and the fact that the more people who are off sick the worse our essential services become. It's not just about people dying. You know this, I know you do, so what is it that you actually want to happen?

You want your old life back? There's nothing that can make that happen, but it could get a hell of a lot worse than it is if we're not careful. Why is that so hard to understand?

This is it, the best we can do, the only choice we have is keep it like this or let the shit hit the fan.

The shit has already hit the fan

And there will be more shit next year when we have several millions of people unemployed

@amusedtodeath1

And ALL deaths from Covid after the 28 days are completely ignored in the figures. As a consequence a lot of Covid deaths are not included in the figures which should offset those who didn't die of Covid but were included.

Why focus on deaths though, there's long term health issues to consider and the fact that the more people who are off sick the worse our essential services become. It's not just about people dying. You know this, I know you do, so what is it that you actually want to happen?

You want your old life back? There's nothing that can make that happen, but it could get a hell of a lot worse than it is if we're not careful. Why is that so hard to understand?

This is it, the best we can do, the only choice we have is keep it like this or let the shit hit the fan.

Guernsey have their old lives back (with some restrictions on travel) and have done for several months.

They have cases in the communitybthatbonly cane to light because someone took a testvprior to travel.

How do the doommongers explain that? They should surely all be dead with the virus there and no masks, no social distancing, schools as normal, mass gatherings etc.?

I can't link it that's why I put the Google thing in. It's the asset publishing gov site but a pdf straight from Google search. Have a look, it's interesting :)

I know bed capacity is high this time of year, but with so.many surgeries cancelled, it does make me think xovid is making up the shortfall. If the other procedures hadn't been cancelled we'd be up the creek. The knock on effects for the nhs are going to be catastrophic.

The picture is the search and the document is the second one down.

@Winederlust

And the hospitals aren't "overrun" with Covid patients...there are less than there were back in April/May

Nationally perhaps but in several areas of the north they are as busy or more busy than in April.

I wouldn’t mind people being honest about it being hard to give up luxuries (and they are luxuries) but all this pretending nothing is happening is some weird psychological thing

@BelleSausage not sure if I’m reading your post correctly - are you saying people only have to give up luxuries in lockdown?

It's pointless having this argument on MN.

The cookie-cutter response is always: "if we'd done nothing, the NHS would be overwhelmed and the country would crash and burn 10's of thousands would die etc"... (there's no evidence for this btw...pure conjecture).

When someone holds that position, you simply cannot reason with them.

We gave up the luxury of an income, that was a tough one but we've got the rest of winter at least to get used to it I suppose.

This is it, the best we can do, the only choice we have is keep it like this or let the shit hit the fan.

Given this is not a sustainable way for society to function longer term, when do we go for the shit hitting the fan option?

Well I guess Guernsey is a small Island so easy to close borders as not a travel hub and never had many cases. Si is still a requirrment or visitors

“The numbers might get adjusted down months after, but the figures published each day include ANY death where someone has tested positive in the last 28 days.

Show me anything that says different and I will apologise and eat my proverbial hat.”

The ONS figures include everyone that had Covid as a cause of death on the death certificate.

ONS figure of those with Covid as a cause of death: 58,925
Government figure of deaths within 28 days of positive test: 45,675

It’s not being revised down.

Posted with zero hysteria but to provide facts.

That’s not the Guardian’s opinion, they’re reporting on this man’s opinion.
I don’t know why I’m still opening these threads. Reading how posters go through details to defend the indefensible is unbearable. All countries are going through the exact same thing, and there’s people in every one of them thinking they understand the situation better than all experts in the world. The government don’t want to do what they are doing ffs