If Covid is going nowhere what is the plan for schools?

[Marcellemouse]

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/covid-here-stay-even-develop-19095194
Just asked this on a different thread but no response.
Bearing in mind the above, at what point teachers be happy to teach a full class of DC?

@3littlewords

I think maybe what the OP meant to say is..... IF coronavirus is never going to be eradicated and children aren't going to be vaccinated how do we get to a place where everyone feels school is safer to return to the same learning practices we had previously?

Well I personally never have felt safe in school and I never will. But I love my job so I do it.

As I've said in other threads it's not all about covid.

I'm not worried about it in the slightest, but I am terrified of getting d&v, noro etc. If I do, I end up in hospital and I am now likely to need my colon removing the next time I get unwell, with a guaranteed 100% complications risk.

I understand a lot of people are worried and anxious about covid. But it has always upset me that before all this those of us with worries never got listened to. I had to fight, repeatedly to not teach classes in my school where there was a sickness bug going round due to the risk it posed to me. And usually I lost and I just had to do it anyway because there wasn't the staff to cover.

I know covid is the thing at the moment that's causing problems for the majority and I get that. But there are other things that cause risk to some of us in schools and generally, unless I've lucked out and someone can cover...I've just had to carry on. And I have ended up hospitalized as a result, more than once.

@Barbie222

how do we get to a place where everyone feels school is safer to return to the same learning practices we had previously?

I think the key to this is having transmission really low before schools open as normal, and if they aren't in some regions, we limit numbers as we did in June until they are, unfortunately. It would have meant a lot less disruption all round.

But transmission was low before schools reopened in June, and there were still many people not happy. Do you not remember the posts about "my children will not be guinea pigs!" "when you reopen parliament then i'll consider sending my kids back!" etc etc.

Transmission may not be low for months and months or years even - are we really prepared to sacrifice an entire generations education until that unfixed end point?

I know what you're getting at OP. Children are highly unlikely to be vaccinated. Alot of school staff are under 50 and won't be vaccinated for a long while yet. At what point do accept it will most likely circulate in this population for a long time yet. Sending children home for 2 weeks at every case is unsustainable really when there won't be a vaccine for this age, but I dont know what the answer is tbh.

But transmission was low before schools reopened in June, and there were still many people not happy. Do you not remember the posts about "my children will not be guinea pigs!" "when you reopen parliament then i'll consider sending my kids back!" etc etc.

There are still parents saying this now. But there are no teachers who did not work in June, apart from shielders, the same as any industry. There were no strikes. If any teachers didn't go in, they would have been on disciplinary the same as any other profession. It was parents who shouted loudly about the risk to their children and voted with their feet about attending school, not teachers.

I don't understand why the unions are keeping quiet at this point. They've said a few things sure but I would have expected them to be riotous. Are any other teachers (despite the fact that we should find our own teaching forum to post on) surprised by this? Or have I missed something?

Teachers, TAs and schools are mostly absolutely wonderful and sadly some parents are ungrateful toads and treat teachers like shit. The very fact that so many parents want their children in school is a testament to the work the school staff do. It isn't simply about childcare, though of course I society is geared towards two parents working, but most children are very happy in school.

But there are a small number of teachers on here that repeatedly start school threads calling for closures and slagging off parents. It winds people up. You know before you even open a thread who it's going to be. I think that's what this thread is about.

It would be lovely if, from the pandemic we had an overhaul of the system. Perhaps a revamp of the buildings, extra classrooms built, new schools popping up, a big recruitment drive for teachers and TAs, worked on reducing class sizes over the next few years. Improving failing schools. There are schools round here that are half empty because no one wants their children to go there.

Unfortunately 10 years of Tory government, no one wants to pay for better public services, Cameron's government chipped away at the public feeling towards the public sector that they are all lazy and overpaid.

@Autumnleavestime

Teachers, TAs and schools are mostly absolutely wonderful and sadly some parents are ungrateful toads and treat teachers like shit. The very fact that so many parents want their children in school is a testament to the work the school staff do. It isn't simply about childcare, though of course I society is geared towards two parents working, but most children are very happy in school.

But there are a small number of teachers on here that repeatedly start school threads calling for closures and slagging off parents. It winds people up. You know before you even open a thread who it's going to be. I think that's what this thread is about.

It would be lovely if, from the pandemic we had an overhaul of the system. Perhaps a revamp of the buildings, extra classrooms built, new schools popping up, a big recruitment drive for teachers and TAs, worked on reducing class sizes over the next few years. Improving failing schools. There are schools round here that are half empty because no one wants their children to go there.

Unfortunately 10 years of Tory government, no one wants to pay for better public services, Cameron's government chipped away at the public feeling towards the public sector that they are all lazy and overpaid.

I agree they've completely fucked up the school system and it's been fucked up for a very long time.

I have to say though even as a teacher I think the main priority if we are going to fix any public services would be making sure that we have hospitals that aren't working at nearly 100% capacity all the time. Because then, when something like this happens, we wouldn't be in the situation of having to "save the NHS".

Whilst schools are in dire need of money (and I would quite like a pay raise you know!) I think it's VERY obvious that we are as a country desperate for more nurses, doctors and hospital capacity.

I think if I had to pick which had to be done NOW...I know which... (Ideally it would be both though!)

I don't understand why the unions are keeping quiet at this point. They've said a few things sure but I would have expected them to be riotous. Are any other teachers (despite the fact that we should find our own teaching forum to post on) surprised by this? Or have I missed something?

Personally I think the unions made a huge fuss back in June when community transmission was low and there were only a few year groups going back.

They pushed for September. Many people said what would be so different in September.

Actually I've changed my mind.

What we need right this second, in this country, is a world beating test and trace system......

Because then we wouldn't have to worry about stupid amounts of bubble closures and time off work. If we could get immediate answers (In Germany they get tests back in 4 hours), isolate as soon as we know we have to...for the right time and the right people... We wouldn't be in such a mess.

I'm sure we were promised a world beating test and trace system.....

I think unions are giving the government enough rope to hang itself with, personally.

They know that as cases rise, schools effectively close, without any involvement from the unions. Rather than turn the public's ire against unions for being responsible for school's shutting, they are keeping their mouths closed and letting the blame for a lack of education land squarely on the pathetic response by the government.

My sympathy lies entirely with teachers and students who are either vulnerable themselves or live with vulnerable people. The unions are completely letting vulnerable teachers down. Secondary schools are, in my opinion and experience, absolutely prime drivers of infection.

@Nellodee nicely put.

@Autumnleavestime

Teachers, TAs and schools are mostly absolutely wonderful and sadly some parents are ungrateful toads and treat teachers like shit. The very fact that so many parents want their children in school is a testament to the work the school staff do. It isn't simply about childcare, though of course I society is geared towards two parents working, but most children are very happy in school.

But there are a small number of teachers on here that repeatedly start school threads calling for closures and slagging off parents. It winds people up. You know before you even open a thread who it's going to be. I think that's what this thread is about.

It would be lovely if, from the pandemic we had an overhaul of the system. Perhaps a revamp of the buildings, extra classrooms built, new schools popping up, a big recruitment drive for teachers and TAs, worked on reducing class sizes over the next few years. Improving failing schools. There are schools round here that are half empty because no one wants their children to go there.

Unfortunately 10 years of Tory government, no one wants to pay for better public services, Cameron's government chipped away at the public feeling towards the public sector that they are all lazy and overpaid.

Please do quote the posts where teachers are calling for closures and slagging off parents. I have been on many school threads and have yet to see evidence of this.

@Nellodee

I think unions are giving the government enough rope to hang itself with, personally.

They know that as cases rise, schools effectively close, without any involvement from the unions. Rather than turn the public's ire against unions for being responsible for school's shutting, they are keeping their mouths closed and letting the blame for a lack of education land squarely on the pathetic response by the government.

My sympathy lies entirely with teachers and students who are either vulnerable themselves or live with vulnerable people. The unions are completely letting vulnerable teachers down. Secondary schools are, in my opinion and experience, absolutely prime drivers of infection.

Fair point.

But yes this is the thing. Whilst I've said countless times I have chosen not to shield and I'm not bothered by covid.... I am technically still a vulnerable teacher.. and I am very well aware that should I wish to take precautions...or have support...there is nothing. I feel deeply for my vulnerable colleagues across the country who do want to reduce their risk because they can't.

Well personally I have never felt safe in school and i never will

That's why I put "safer" instead of safe. It amazes me how many people thought that schools weren't spreading viruses before now

@Jrobhatch29

I know what you're getting at OP. Children are highly unlikely to be vaccinated. Alot of school staff are under 50 and won't be vaccinated for a long while yet. At what point do accept it will most likely circulate in this population for a long time yet. Sending children home for 2 weeks at every case is unsustainable really when there won't be a vaccine for this age, but I dont know what the answer is tbh.

I was wondering this. I suppose it will be when there is a vaccine and the elderly and most vulnerable are vaccinated. Everyone else, children, teachers, families will just have to get on with it then and accept that it will circulate in some places like schools but know that the most vulnerable are a bit more protected so it’s ok.

How are the most vulnerable protected?

But there are a small number of teachers on here that repeatedly start school threads calling for closures and slagging off parents.

No, there aren't. This makes it sound like teachers don't want to work. We do. We don't want schools to close. We would like things to be as they have always been.

But if opening schools causes the transmission to rise to the point where most children are affected in any case, it would be better to do this in a way which was controlled and meant we all knew where we were from week to week. The worst outcome is unplanned, repeated closure, and for many children that's what we've got. If it hasn't happened to you yet it's only a matter of time given the data, sadly.

And that's just the risk to children's education, not even touching on the increased risk to the health of staff.

@Nellodee

How are the most vulnerable protected?

In schools ? They're not .

I think we all have to suck it up for now. The vast majority of kids are getting an education, in some cases a disrupted one but still an education. If we shut schools now we really may as well not have bothered opening them in the first place. It will become a fucking farce.
It was said right at the start of all this that we would sacrifice a lot for schools to remain open. Well most of us are doing - so schools need to get on with it.

We've been setting up online learning again for closures. It's now a legal requirement (I believe ) to be delivering the lessons we would have taught in school. It can't be just outdoor tasks and crafts anymore as much as I think they're more likely to do that.

However most of our meeting about this was spent discussing that despite us needing to do it...a huge amount of families wouldn't, or couldn't.

It's an absolute mess. And is going to have unthinkable ramifications long term if it carries on as it is, no matter how hard we work. And my goodness are we working hard.

Please do quote the posts where teachers are calling for closures and slagging off parents. I have been on many school threads and have yet to see evidence of this.

I'm not going to trawl back through old threads, and I'm not here to goad. I've seen comments such as parents can't be bothered to look after their children, parents don't care, parents just want to get rid of their dc. I'm not making it up, these are comments I have seen. Perhaps the people that have posted that sort of stuff don't even realise how cutting and offensive it is.

I am not slating teachers. I'm just saying it can wind people up when they're perhaps doing their own shitty jobs and see comments like that.

I wish I had the answer to make everything right for everyone. I think the op is just saying that even with a vaccine we may have to live with the risk of Covid for many, many years to come.

Barbie222 I'm not saying teachers don't want to work. As teachers have rightly pointed out, they are working. In full and possibly harder than before what with extra regimes and trying to catch children up. And most are doing a fine job of it.

@OpheliasCrayon

Actually I've changed my mind.

What we need right this second, in this country, is a world beating test and trace system......

Because then we wouldn't have to worry about stupid amounts of bubble closures and time off work. If we could get immediate answers (In Germany they get tests back in 4 hours), isolate as soon as we know we have to...for the right time and the right people... We wouldn't be in such a mess.

I'm sure we were promised a world beating test and trace system.....

Well yes...and surely what was different back in June, was the idea that when things opened up on a wider scale, including schools, there would be a fast and efficient testing system. My ds is medically vulnerable, and I posted on a lot of the earlier threads, where I don't really remember the picture painted of either the teachers who repeatedly start school threads calling for closures and slagging off parents or the threads where parents were demanding schools be closed. The majority of posters seemed to want the schools open to a wider cohort of children, better options and no fines for families with vulnerable members, masks, better ventilation, etc ie things to be as safe as possible for staff, children and their families. The reality in September was very different (ime) - there was zero social distancing, no masks (primary), hygeine measures were not great, when half of ds's class was ill in the second week back, it took a week for us to get a test, we overheard parents saying they weren't bothering to get a test as they were impossible to get, kids were sent in with clear symptoms. Originally school said they would fine us if we decided to keep ds home, but eventually even the teacher said she felt it was going to be very hard for ds (Winters are anyway illness wise) and the lack of testing meant lots of parents were avoiding it and they'd had to call several parents to pick up children who were ill - we got a letter from the GP saying that it would be safer to stay home, and (in a case of perfect timing) on that day, ds's bubble burst, with a case in his class.
We've had 2 periods of self isolation for ds, and 2 for his sisters (in secondary) I just feel if there was a decent testing system, better options for remote learning if necessary (alongside good communication with the school), teachers being able to have discussions about how to protect themselves without being vilified and parents being able to discuss options without being painted as haranguing nightmares....then things may be more sustainable.

But I do think eventually children will get the vaccine (which will be available to all age groups like the flu vaccine)

Maybe eventually children will get the vaccine but even the most optimistic are predicting the general population won’t get it until 2022 and children will be the last on the list to get it. We have to have schools properly open by then without all the isolation periods or so many kids will miss out on their education

Other countries have arranged their reopening of schools with much smaller class sizes & other mitigations, and are not having as many problems as us.

We could organise this (with blended schooling for those children who want it, that would help with numbers) and this would help kids stay back in a more consistent way.