I'm calling it - people aren't complying.

[TheFormattingIsWrong]

Local lockdowns aren't working. The North has proven that. Why would it be different in London or anywhere else for that matter? People have stopped complying. They did it in March when it was implied by Bojo that it was going to be a 3 month thing, but as it has become abundantly clear that that this is going to be a way of living until there is a vaccine, and there is no guarantee on a vaccine, people have just said sod it then, I'm not living that way.

I won't be complying. I'll be continuing to see my mum and my sisters. I'd obey it to the letter if it was a 2 week circuit breaker, but as it's clear we're going to have to live this way until at least next Spring, no, I won't be complying.

And for those who say "oh well that's why cases are going up" - until this government kicks itself up the arse and gets a functioning test and trace system in place, they always would anyway. Either it's lockdown or it's cases rising. And most of us aren't prepared to live without seeing family or friends (yes, indoors!) until Spring.

@PhilCornwall1 I recall from a previous thread that you are extremely clinically vulnerable. Are you not on any medication or receiving any services from the NHS at all for your condition?

@TheFormattingIsWrong

We've had local restrictions in the NW for months now

And has it worked?

No - because people haven't followed them (I live in the NW).

OP you asked Why do you think south east Asia has its cases under control?

Probably because they had much harsher rules about lockdown, they had far more serious penalties for breaking them, and the population complied. The exact opposite of what you're wanting to do. Do you really want to have to live under the conditions they had to?

I kinda like how you are coming out here fighting OP

I feel like you do, deep inside, but am still sticking with the rules.

My problem is: lockdown/circuit breaks/tiered lockdown will slow the spread... until it comes back again... and it WILL come back. For years, maybe decades even, there may well never be a vaccine

So, we can decide to live with this virus the way we live with flu and colds and nori virus. Some people will die of Covid, like people die of flu and other causes.

Ultimately, the virus is probably here to stay. A new virus may be added by the lab in Wuhan or anywhere else.

Will we now be permanently ruled by committee (with parliament having no say)

Will we go from lockdown to lockdown to lockdown over the next year/decade?

There is no end in sight, so we need to think long term.

To me, locking down intermittently for the foreseeable future is too big a price to pay.

We need to get to acceptance that this virus exists and will be with us now.

We need to protect the vulnerable, we need to have enough capacity to deal with people that need to go to hospital with Covid, but we also need for life to go on for society.

I am all for precautions, masks, washing hands etc

But deep inside I am raging at the fact that our liberty and democracy have been sacrificed ... for how long?’

Is there anyone here who thinks restrictions on not meeting other households wont actually bring down cases? Do you think its possible that lockdowns in other places havent worked because transmissions arent primarily coming from households, but from workplaces, schools, universities etc?

What are people going to do if in 2 or 3 weeks time when not seeing their family has made no difference to the case numbers? Are we going to keep saying 'people arent complying' and sit at home, or will we face the idea that maybe its being spread in other ways and sitting at home isnt actually helping much?

Many people aren’t fully complying, but are still not completely throwing in the towel and having parties!

I’m afraid if our area gets escalated to tier 2 (which it hasn’t yet, but we’re not all that far from London or Essex, so it wouldn’t surprise me if it happened before winter) then we will not be sticking to the rules. I’m expecting twins shortly, and due to some medical complications will have to have a C section. Due to timings of work, my DH won’t be able to do school run for our 4 year old while I’m at hospital, nor will I be able to drive as soon as I get out (because of section) so my DMum will be helping out until I am well enough to manage.

Some sense of proportion please - in some circumstances it is harder than in others to manage without family support.

I'm in Scotland and almost everyone I know now is seeing family still to some extent, whereas almost everyone I know was compliant during the first lock down.

People are sick and tired of it.

We are in London and despite being in one of the lowest scoring boroughs, will be complying.

Already changed our plans for Saturday to meet parents outside instead of lunch inside and ensure numbers adhere to the rule of 6.

FWIW I don’t think the new measures will have much impact but we will comply because I really don’t know what the alternative is. I prefer this to a 2 week circuit breaker, even if this goes on all winter.

@crazychemist that would be allowed under the lockdown rules in NI for example, unsure of tier 2/3 restrictions, as it is care giving, but that is obviously a reasonable exception to make.

We're not complying this time because my dad has cancer and won't be here by Christmas. In fact I have just come from his house where me, OH my 2 sisters and 2 of my nieces have moved all his stuff from his room upstairs to the lounge and vice versa. We even hugged him and each other as we cried.

@TheFormattingIsWrong

you just know they’d be first in line, pushing and shoving, for hospital treatment should they get sick with covid

I'd happily sign a disclaimer to waiver that actually. Show me where I sign up.

Me too

[quote Eckhart]@PhilCornwall1

How would you get your broken arm etc fixed, then? What would you do if you slipped off the curb this afternoon and broke a bone?[/quote]
Something that would have to be thought about if it happens. But I really don't want to have anything to do with them.

@trappedsincesundaymorn I’m terribly sorry for your family and the situation. I think everyone can agree that these are the sort of exceptions that are legitimate, and act as an example for why everyone else In the population should be limiting contact where at all possible

I see you're arguing for stronger measures on other threads @Flaxmeadow . Do you have a very secure job / the sort of circumstances that will shield you and your family from the consequences of a lockdown?

Agree OP, I stopped caring a long time ago. We got so little sympathy from the lockdown fans at the economic shafting we've had that I feel disinclined to worry about the world at large now.

I'm all for sticking to the rules if they work but these indefinite local lockdowns are NOT working! Circuit break. 2 weeks, a month of they want. I will stick to the rules. Luckily I'm not in a local lockdown area... Yet....but my nearest city has had numbers explode per 100k in the last month. Just so happens to be a HUGE uni town too 🙄

@Freshfaced

Dd is 15. Talking about this in the car today she said (casually) "Well my friends and I won't be doing that". When pressed she said that they are in school all day together. Half term is coming up, the weather will be rubbish and they won't not see each other at people's houses.

I foresee a massive struggle trying to get her to comply when frankly the rules are more flexible than previously and even then we appeared to be the only parents enforcing it. Frankly if all her friends are meeting then this time I won't be forcing her to stay home and comply- previously she ended up pretty excluded as everyone was out and about and it took a while for her friendships and mental health to recover.

I do very much sympathise with young people who have been especially fucked over (and I blame the Track and Trace SNAFU and governments general fucking ineptitude). I also see the lack of logic in "we see each other at school why can't we go to Natalie's house, everyone else is OK with it and their parents are OK with it".

But. It's about minimising risk not eradicating it. School etc is worth encountering this risk, going to Natalie's isn't. I understand you think it is if the risk is low and you believe the consequences equally low (and this may be true for you).

Unfortunately people coming into contact with Natalie's friends and family and each one of their friends and family may have a higher risk of worse consequences - and everyone involved in Natalie's get together is deliberately increasing their risk just because you're not bothered about your own.

Unfortunately we live in an area with a very high rate of transmission. At my DD's college, Natalie (not her real name!!) had a party (I felt awful at the time asking DD not to go, it was a bit of a drama, in the end she didn't go). The week after, three of the students tested positive. Then eleven more people at college tested positive (and half of them also had another case in their household) Now over 100 students are isolating. As it was an outbreak all the students movements and contacts had to be looked into. (I know a lot of them were panicking they would get £10;000 fines!).

Obviously Natalie's party may not have been the only cause - it may have been transmitted at college. But some of the students are in different classes and the only contact they had was the party (hence the worrying, no one got a fine btw!)

And I know people will say "but I'm not having a party, I'm only seeing my parents" or "my SIL doesn't see anyone else" or "I WFH and get shopping delivered" but I have had my eyes opened over the last few weeks and there are chains of transmission people are party to without even realising (and this is where track and trace is fucking it right up, and fucking our young people over by not actually being any use in breaking these chains)

It's so easy to be meh, whatever, I'm done with this when you perceive the risk to be low - but you're making that choice for others.

My DD has now been advised to self isolate as she is in a Geography class with someone who has tested positive. I have lung disease and have just recovered from pneumonia.

@Racoonworld

Totally agree. We won’t be complying either. The sooner the government realise that lockdown isn’t working the better.

YABTTTTTTU

[quote Lucindainthesky]@PhilCornwall1 I recall from a previous thread that you are extremely clinically vulnerable. Are you not on any medication or receiving any services from the NHS at all for your condition? [/quote]
I have not had any treatment from them for months and have desperately tried to get support from them, have received nothing and have been told that I will get nothing from them until "sometime in 2021, covid is too important, what do you expect us to do".

On a personal level the idea of not being allowed to go to a socially distancing gym with excellent mitigation measures in place would be pretty galling given it's apparently perfectly safe for me to teach over 350 kids from 4 different year groups each week effectively making my bubble the whole school plus every teenagers family, their families colleagues, everyone they share public transport with etc without any meaningful test, track and trace going on.

Given that I'm not surprised that those teenagers feel the same.

The trouble is that the very places that are clearly the biggest drivers of transmission are operating basically as normal but they want to deprive people of seeing family, or going to the gym or to stop 5 old boys sat at different tables in a village pub being ok.

There is no logic and too many people, eg. teenagers and teachers, who are being expected to believe completely contradictory versions of reality.

How am I supposed to stomach my massive exposure at work if they then tell me I can't see anyone outside of work or go to the gym or have any kind of life outside of school because THAT would be unsafe?

I was very pro lockdown and following rules etc but 6 weeks of being in rammed corridors and classrooms pretending a bit of hand sanitiser will save me has unsurprisingly changed things

@lurker101 seems to not be allowed for tier 2/3 in England. My area is currently tier 1, but if we get upgraded I’m won’t be changing my mind - I’m not going to put DD through unnecessary upheaval by pulling her out
Of preschool when I have an alternative.

I live in an area with very low cases but all my family live in an area that has been under local lockdown for months. They’re in greater Manchester and so are borderline going into tier 3. My family are, and have been for a while, struggling with the restrictions and morale is lacking. They followed guidelines and cases increased. They’ve seen restrictions being broken by other people and the restrictions have just taken a toll on them. The thing is, I’ve not seen them since before this started. They aren’t just around the corner. I have to travel for hours and stay with a family member or book into a hotel. It’s not just a case of flouting the guidelines a little bit and meeting in a park. I’ll have seen my family once this year, usually I see them every 6-8 weeks. The longer people don’t comply with the guidelines and cases go up, the longer I go without seeing my family. Everyone is breaking the guidelines because they want to see their families, which I completely understand, but your choices impact other people’s choices and stop other people from seeing their families.

I don’t actually blame the general public for lack of compliance. If the government had displayed such disregard for their own guidelines with no repercussions, we probably wouldn’t be in the shit show were in now.

@Flaxmeadow

I won't be complying.

So if a large proportion of people have this attitude, will they be prepared to have no health service, no social services, no police etc.

For some people that feels like the reality already.

If - for whatever reason - your life feels like shit, then it is going to be spectacularly hard to be motivated by tales of how shit it might make a few people who you've never met.

If you want people to act as a cohesive whole, you need to start by treating them as a cohesive whole. And that ship sailed years ago.

So we aren’t in a full lockdown and the deaths are less than 200 for 65 million people. The fear isn’t worth it people.

The self serving idiots in my county council have just got the government to move them up a tier for no valid reasons.

There are just under 100,000 people in my district. To date, less than 500 have had the disease. Presently 0.07% have it. In my local town there is one family who have a few cases. That is it. Our incompetent councillors, who get paid a fat wad irrespective of their decisions and whether there is a global recession or not, prefer to work form home and so are happy to decimate our local economy and send MH/ CAMHS referrals sky rocketing just so they can appease their elderly electorate.

We got so little sympathy from the lockdown fans at the economic shafting we've had that I feel disinclined to worry about the world at large now.

Well quite. Apparently sympathy is only allowed if one is vulnerable to or ill with covid.

When, on another threat, I pointed out that I have relatives who have been utterly destroyed financially by the government's refusal to let theatres open, I was told that theatre is a risky business anyway, that they surely should have savings to see them through, that it is a hobby not a job and that they ought to have trained as an accountant just in case something like this happened.

And for those of you saying those of us against constant lockdowns should be refused hospital treatment, do you also apply that to smokers, alcoholics and the obese?