I'm calling it - people aren't complying.

[TheFormattingIsWrong]

Local lockdowns aren't working. The North has proven that. Why would it be different in London or anywhere else for that matter? People have stopped complying. They did it in March when it was implied by Bojo that it was going to be a 3 month thing, but as it has become abundantly clear that that this is going to be a way of living until there is a vaccine, and there is no guarantee on a vaccine, people have just said sod it then, I'm not living that way.

I won't be complying. I'll be continuing to see my mum and my sisters. I'd obey it to the letter if it was a 2 week circuit breaker, but as it's clear we're going to have to live this way until at least next Spring, no, I won't be complying.

And for those who say "oh well that's why cases are going up" - until this government kicks itself up the arse and gets a functioning test and trace system in place, they always would anyway. Either it's lockdown or it's cases rising. And most of us aren't prepared to live without seeing family or friends (yes, indoors!) until Spring.

@fairynick

I genuinely don’t know anyone following them anymore. I’m in Manchester and we haven’t had really any sort of lift since March. By anyone I mean all my family, all my friends and my friends friends. Every single person in my office. Genuinely don’t know one soul.

This is tough for Manchester as the tier 2/ 3 debacle goes on.

Classic denial and selfishness going on here. When you sit holding the hands of 44 different people as they have to die without family present over a period of 6 weeks. A husband and wife who die within days of each other. Then you comply because you realise this isn't chicken pox! I hope to god you don't see that level of pain and suffering but maybe just maybe you need to!

@peasoup8

Also, as *@Loustew12* said, why does no one give a damn about the 64,000 flu victims who die each year? I’m sure we could prevent thousands of those deaths too if we all locked ourselves indoors.

It’s very dodgy when people stray into false ‘facts’ territory.

Really don’t do that. This is totally wrong. Don’t just make things up and put them around as fact to justify your position. It is too serious a situation. You need to all retract the false data on flu deaths. Argue from your person views if you must but not false data.

If you can, you should. I can't think about the lack of compliance. I think the socioeconomic fall out of this will completely reshape the UK. As a citizen of a county, who benefits and has benefited from financial assistance and a free NHS that has saved my life on a couple of occasions, I honestly feel it's my moral obligation to do as I am asked. And I continue to do it to protect my family. I have no issue with breaking contact with those who can, and don't.

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/14/poor-numerical-literacy-linked-to-greater-susceptibility-to-covid-19-fake-news

I do agree that this has been badly managed. A cycle of lockdowns isn’t good management and test and trace are critical. However, the reason why test and trace could be much more useful is something we can all do ourselves if we wanted - which is limiting our contacts, putting masks on and ventilation if we are indoors anywhere outside our homes, meeting people outside.

None of this bad management from the UK means we get off the hook from our own personal responsibilities. We are not children having to be told what to do. We are adults.

I put this up earlier but no one wants to read it? Why not? It’s not government policies, it’s not the rule of 6 or lockdown restrictions. What it is, is a really good guide to where our risk is. Let’s keep off the red and into the green. If we all did this, then we wouldn’t need to go into any lockdowns.

I could see friends etc, but because I want to see my mum and sisters, I've chosen not to

I don't understand this. You say you're not complying with the rules, your mum and sisters don't mind, but you're not seeing friends? Why?

That’s probably about right @TheClaws. I don’t know why you have put me in that category though given I have followed every rule throughout and I continue to do so.

You say you're not complying with the rules, your mum and sisters don't mind, but you're not seeing friends? Why?

I mean for the same reason I'm not using the tube and working from home and wearing a mask? To minimise risk in order to continue seeing my mum and sisters.

Not really sure why that is difficult to understand. Not all of us who find the rules nonsensical are also mask rejecting QAnon covid deniers you know.

@TheFormattingIsWrong

You say you're not complying with the rules, your mum and sisters don't mind, but you're not seeing friends? Why?

I mean for the same reason I'm not using the tube and working from home and wearing a mask? To minimise risk in order to continue seeing my mum and sisters.

Not really sure why that is difficult to understand. Not all of us who find the rules nonsensical are also mask rejecting QAnon covid deniers you know.

Because you seem to be revelling in the fact that you are ‘not complying’.

You did not post ‘I am trying my best but I want to see my sister and mother who have severe mental health problems’ and explain that you agree with trying to protect as many as possible, but that you felt that you really needed to keep up a face to face relationship, but we’re doing it in the safest way for you and others as possible.

You seemed to have instead felt the need to put up a very provocative title ‘I’m calling it’ - eh?! As if you were inciting more of rule breaking, revelling that you were right and that it’s all a mess so why bother etc. You’ve put other posters down who have told some heartbreaking stories of working in ICU units or their loved ones dying - shown no sympathy or compassion.

And yet, paradoxically are really also trying to say that you feel that it is important to comply as much as possible and only break this for compassionate reasons.

@Flaxmeadow

I won't be complying.

So if a large proportion of people have this attitude, will they be prepared to have no health service, no social services, no police etc.

Why would we have no police? The cases are going up yes but they are testing more and the gap between deaths in proportion to positive cases is getting bigger so that's a good thing. It just proves how little chance there is of dying.

The hospitals are not overwhelmed so that's not even an argument. The nightingales weren't used last time and they won't be used this time. Complete waste of money.

I for one do not know anyone who is following the rules.

There is also a 1% rate of false positives. That adds up a lot!!!

And yet, paradoxically are really also trying to say that you feel that it is important to comply as much as possible and only break this for compassionate reasons.

That's actually not what I'm saying at all. That's what I've said I'm doing, based on my own circumstances which are pretty privileged. That's not what I've said everyone should do. I have no idea of people's individual circumstances, so can't comment.

My point was that, whatever reasons they give, people are not complying. The public moood has changed. The govt needs to adjust its strategy accordingly.

Even though the logical amongst you will tear your hair out when people say "but schools HAVE to be open! It's about minimising risk!", the fact of the matter is that a lot of people will simply reject the idea that their children can be at school with hundreds of others, but they can't see extended family. I know exactly why that is, and if they thought about it I'm sure they would too, but they'll reject it anyway. Like it or not, logical or not, that's what happening.

There's also the fact that a lot of people who don't have school aged children, or who are child free, are being expected to sacrifice an awful lot in order to keep other people's children in school.

@TheFormattingIsWrong

And yet, paradoxically are really also trying to say that you feel that it is important to comply as much as possible and only break this for compassionate reasons.

That's actually not what I'm saying at all. That's what I've said I'm doing, based on my own circumstances which are pretty privileged. That's not what I've said everyone should do. I have no idea of people's individual circumstances, so can't comment.

My point was that, whatever reasons they give, people are not complying. The public moood has changed. The govt needs to adjust its strategy accordingly.

Even though the logical amongst you will tear your hair out when people say "but schools HAVE to be open! It's about minimising risk!", the fact of the matter is that a lot of people will simply reject the idea that their children can be at school with hundreds of others, but they can't see extended family. I know exactly why that is, and if they thought about it I'm sure they would too, but they'll reject it anyway. Like it or not, logical or not, that's what happening.

How can you possibly know that people aren’t complying if all you see are your sister and mother?

And how can it possibly help to tell everyone else that it’s fine not to comply and encourage more of it?

Especially if you really are trying your best. Why not just share your personal circumstance. Why the angry and dispassionate call for more selfishness? When really you are saying that you are not doing it out of selfishness, but applauding and encouraging people who are?

There was an interesting behavioural scientist on R4 the other day who talked about the contagious effect of people saying they are not following the rules.

It legitimises not doing so. So why aren’t people? Part of the reason is threads saying they’re not and it mounts up.

Not specifically at you op but generally what we’re up against.

How can you possibly know that people aren’t complying if all you see are your sister and mother?

Well firstly, I do actually speak to other people even if I don't physically see them.

Secondly, I see what my neighbours are doing.

And thirdly, I read mumsnet.

So if we each have things we hold very dear whether it be seeing family, business or school the better option is to not tell people you are not complying, and no one else is, as you’ll more likely keep that thing.

@MarshaBradyo

There was an interesting behavioural scientist on R4 the other day who talked about the contagious effect of people saying they are not following the rules.

It legitimises not doing so. So why aren’t people? Part of the reason is threads saying they’re not and it mounts up.

Not specifically at you op but generally what we’re up against.

Yes agreed wholeheartedly and there was a nice study which showed that more empathy equals better compliance, but that empathy could kind of ‘catch on’ if more people saw others doing the same.

I think most of us would empathise in special circumstances too, if someone we know was in mental or physical pain and need a family member for example. What is painful to see is trying to be our best but others simply not caring.

www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2020-10/au-epc101320.php

@Msmcc1212

Neighbours son, early 40s, no other health conditions, young children, just died after 2 weeks of Covid.

Those flouting the rules purposefully and for no good reason. This is what happens.

Im extremely sorry to hear of your neighbour’s son’s death.

You say it is because of rule flouting - it may have been in his case, however my cousin has just caught covid and it was nothing to do with rule breaking. She caught it off her teacher partner who caught it from school.

The rules permit covid to transmit in lots of situations and it is simplistic to suggest people catching covid is what happens when people break the rules. With schools, public transport and offices open it will happen anyway.

@TheFormattingIsWrong

There's also the fact that a lot of people who don't have school aged children, or who are child free, are being expected to sacrifice an awful lot in order to keep other people's children in school.

I don’t have school age children but it is important schools stay open for economic reasons as it allows a lot of parents to work.

I agree though that if we really want to stop the spread, that’s where we have to look.

Icecream yes I do think it can grow from either perspective. Either the empathetic/ compliance or the opposite. We are very social and follow other people’s cues. I seem to see a lot of compliance around me (masks, SD, mitigation etc) especially in comparison to many posts on mn.

I find it slightly reassuring but given this pandemic is proving to be so localised I’d be worried to hear no one is complying if I lived in Manchester (as pp said no one was complying).

The effect on hospitals and incomes will be more severely felt in those areas.

I know it’s tough. There are days where everyone wants to just say sod it. I’m fed up but we’ve just been put in tier 2. I’ll ‘lean in’ as they said on radio as the alternative is stricter lick down. Which I really don’t want.

Lock down bloody i!

it is important schools stay open for economic reasons as it allows a lot of parents to work.

I don't disagree with that at all, as a working parent myself, however you can see, can't you, that it would grate on certain people to be told they can't see their family when other people's children are mixing with hundreds of others on a daily basis? And must be particularly shit for teachers.

I’d be worried to hear no one is complying if I lived in Manchester (as pp said no one was complying).

It's pretty obvious something isn't working in Manchester (and other places in the North).