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I'm calling it - people aren't complying.

910 replies

TheFormattingIsWrong · 15/10/2020 12:56

Local lockdowns aren't working. The North has proven that. Why would it be different in London or anywhere else for that matter? People have stopped complying. They did it in March when it was implied by Bojo that it was going to be a 3 month thing, but as it has become abundantly clear that that this is going to be a way of living until there is a vaccine, and there is no guarantee on a vaccine, people have just said sod it then, I'm not living that way.

I won't be complying. I'll be continuing to see my mum and my sisters. I'd obey it to the letter if it was a 2 week circuit breaker, but as it's clear we're going to have to live this way until at least next Spring, no, I won't be complying.

And for those who say "oh well that's why cases are going up" - until this government kicks itself up the arse and gets a functioning test and trace system in place, they always would anyway. Either it's lockdown or it's cases rising. And most of us aren't prepared to live without seeing family or friends (yes, indoors!) until Spring.

OP posts:
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TheHoneyBadger · 15/10/2020 20:32

It wouldn't be long enough to make a dent in the death figures or people who already caught it and are going to go on to development serious complications, no. But obviously it would make a dent in the numbers of new cases and rates of community transmission.

I do feel like a turkey voting for Christmas though - apparently as a teacher I would spend every single holiday in lockdown. If they were somewhat extended holidays though (eg. half term is two weeks full stop rather than half term stays the same but you'll spend the whole of it preparing lessons for the following week of online learning) it might be a reasonable trade off.

It's pretty exhausting in schools right now running around between zones lugging trolleys around and dealing with behaviour issues due to zoning and lack of supervision between classes and duties running around battling to try and keep students apart (impossible btw) and not having a base in a classroom or staffroom etc. I would accept not being able to go away at all if I got to collapse at home for a bit longer.

I don't think we'll get a circuit break though and no doubt I'll be sent for half term with a to do list a mile long for all the 'just in case scenarios' on top of the usual work.

Must moan though, apparently teachers aren't allowed to Wink

autumndream · 15/10/2020 20:36

I'm done with it all now! Shock horror we've been out as 8 group the last couple of weekends

TheHoneyBadger · 15/10/2020 20:37

And kids don't spread it, teachers are immune and schools have magic ley lines that ward off illness - except for colds, flu, scarlet fever and shingles (we've had all of these and more so far in the nearly 6 weeks we've been back - clearly not thwarted by the handsanitiser and signage). Covid though - doesn't spread in schools.

No, no it's people without children who wfh and online shop and don't use public transport visiting their parents that's the trouble!

I kind of do feel like I've slipped into a dystopian novel or maybe just a crappy one that ends with and then she woke up and it was all a dream.

nothingcanhurtmewithmyeyesshut · 15/10/2020 20:40

We dont seem to have much of a health care system now. Unless its covid or a dire emergency no care seems to be available in many areas.

You can't expect people to live like this without seeing other people in person for months on end. The NHS is far more likely to be overwhelmed by the budding mental health crisis than covid at this point.

cardibach · 15/10/2020 20:42

[quote bellatrixlestrange123]@cardibach it also apparently doesn't stop you from catching or spreading 'COVID' if the scientists stuck to their own advice .. and at the risk of making myself look silly yes a muzzle .. amazingly none of the presenters media or otherwise wear them why not? Pretty sure they're in enclosed spaces? How is always one rule for them and one for us? How is Sweden doing? Oh yes .. just fine [/quote]
Prevent? No. Reduce spread? Absolutely.
The presenters are distanced and in huge studios. If you want to worry about people without masks, consider being concerned about schools...
Sweden is a)not fine and b)not without restrictions. What do you lit usually say? Do your research?

Dustballs · 15/10/2020 21:11

For those of you that will be following the rules. Do you believe that these new Tier 2 measures will actually make a difference?

Dustballs · 15/10/2020 21:17

*Just thinking about it... It's a positive sign that we are now allowed to start "I'm not complying" posts. I started one during the first lockdown, saying only that I was not going to comply, and MNHQ deleted it because it was apparently "triggering" confused.

So the very fact that we are now allowed to say this without being censored is a step forward.*

I feel very much the same @RonaLisa. I’m glad firstly that people are waking up, finding their balls and brains and shaking away the blind fold our hoodwinking government has put over us.

Really shocked about your triggering post being deleted but it doesn’t surprise me sadly.

wheresmymojo · 15/10/2020 21:22

On my LinkedIn today Sad

I'm calling it - people aren't complying.
Mumsnorthernmonkey · 15/10/2020 21:24

@dustballs it wasn’t triggering, it’s because you don’t follow the normal state of fear.

Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow · 15/10/2020 21:25

I’m in scotland. Elderly parents. They are seeing their grandkids. End of.

doireallyneedaname · 15/10/2020 21:29

Such a self righteous post. You’ll get reported for “not complying” eventually. I understand your frustration but this isn’t just about you.

RonaLisa · 15/10/2020 21:35

Sorry - this is a bit long, and it's taken from an article by Allister Heath. But he's right:

Please, please, Prime Minister, do not lock us down again. Do not listen to the unidimensional, anti-economic, risk-averse groupthink from Sage. Ignore Sir Keir Starmer and Sadiq Khan’s shameless politicking.
A “circuit-breaker” is doublespeak for another lockdown, and cannot be a sustainable answer: the virus would only be temporarily suppressed, with transmission bouncing back as soon as the restrictions were lifted again. If the NHS cannot cope now, it never will.
Once one accepts the logic of shutting down society each time Covid reaches a certain prevalence, a third and perhaps even fourth lockdown become inevitable before the winter is up. It would lead to the most expensive game of whack-a-mole ever played.
A vicious circle of stop-go lockdowns would be a catastrophic indictment of Government policy, an admission of total defeat, a victory of fear and emotion over reason, an appalling signal that Britain has now become so culturally dysfunctional, so decadent as to be utterly incapable of any rational cost-benefit analysis.
We would no longer be a free society tolerating an exceptional, temporary shutdown to allow our scandalously unprepared establishment to learn to manage a terrible situation. Instead, we would have transitioned to a world of permanent emergency, a wartime society whereby individual rights and lives were permanently suppressed for an ill-defined, ever-shifting “national interest”.
A new principle would have become established: that the Government has the right and even the obligation to lock us down at the first sign of any new epidemic, even one that doesn’t truly threaten the survival of our society. Johnson must resist going down that route with every fibre of his being.
This is not to say that there wouldn’t be some gains from locking down again. Sharply reducing social contacts would slow the spread of the virus. But these benefits would be limited, uncertain and temporary, and some of them could be achieved in a less costly fashion. Any upside would need to be set against gigantic, guaranteed economic, social, personal and metaphysical costs.
The main rationale for a “circuit-breaker” – that it would buy yet more time for “one last push” on testing, the app, tracing and a vaccine – is tragically delusional. Even the French and Germans have failed to introduce effective testing and tracing, suggesting that the endeavour may be an elusive El Dorado, at least for now.
Our own system has improved beyond recognition, but lack of compliance and its own inherent limitations mean that it will almost certainly not be able to keep the reproductive rate below 1. Just as depressingly, there is unlikely to be a usable mass vaccine this year.
Yes, a few deaths might be avoided by spreading out ICU admissions to our hopelessly ineffectual NHS. Yes, a few others – maybe even up to 20,000 in a best-case scenario – might be saved as a result of multiple lockdowns if an effective vaccine suddenly, miraculously materialises by April.
But, in reality, most deaths would not be avoided, merely delayed, and there will be plenty of additional fatalities caused by the lockdown itself – including out of despair – to set against that. Unemployment would have surged, tens of thousands more businesses ruined, family and community life laid to waste, and immense misery created. What kind of society is ready to destroy so much to save so little?

RonaLisa · 15/10/2020 21:35

@doireallyneedaname

Such a self righteous post. You’ll get reported for “not complying” eventually. I understand your frustration but this isn’t just about you.
Rather more succinctly: who's going to report anyone for not complying? The friends I'm not complying with?
TheFormattingIsWrong · 15/10/2020 21:39

You’ll get reported for “not complying” eventually.

Oh yes, by who?

OP posts:
EducatingArti · 15/10/2020 21:40

@TheFormattingIsWrong

But what about the people they come into contact with and the people those people come into contact with. Should they have to live with the consequences of your actions?

Again, please explain the difference between me unwittingly infecting a stranger with norovirus or chickenpox, and me unwittingly infecting a stranger with covid 19.

People's altruism towards others they don't know and have no emotional attachment to only goes so far. That's human nature.

Covid, statistically is more lethal. It contributes to the spread of Covid which in turn reduces the number of teachers, shop workers, nurses, doctors etc working ( because more of them are I'll or self-isolating) which inturn leads to poorer education provision and less health care etc
TheGreatWave · 15/10/2020 21:47

@BlueSomething

'These rules are literally insane. Manchester's infection rate is slowing. There. Is. No. Need.The NHS need to actually be serving sick people, not telling us they can't treat people when they are sick.'

It isn't 'literally insane'. It is a highly contagious infection and limiting social interaction reduces transmission. The nhs does 'serve' people but it has a limited capacity. People need to take some responsibility and socially distance.

Look at France. They are doing exactly the same, as is the rest of Europe.

Well current advice from the NHS for my MIL is that it was perfectly fine for us and a variety of neighbours to go into her house every two hours to administer eye drops. They were most put out when we said we couldn't as we were self isolating.

So if the NHS are actively encouraging social interaction what hope do we have? This is a tier 2 area, even allowing for the providing care clause, I am not sure expecting people to go in and out of her house 7 times a day is within the spirit of that.

LangClegsInSpace · 15/10/2020 21:51

@33goingon64

This whole thread is unbelievable. No-one likes these rules. Absolutely no-one. However it seems that while some people believe in the greater good, others think the rules don't apply to them. Telling the PP who didn't go and comfort her grieving relative that she made a choice and that it doesn't make her morally superior, when we had all been told this was what we all had to do to stop 1000s more deaths, is so unbelievably vile I can't understand how anyone who supports that view can claim they aren't supremely selfish. What about other rules the vast majority of us abide by even though we'd rather not? How is this different?
This post is a very good example of what has gone wrong with this whole discussion (on MN and much wider in society). I'm not particularly singling you out, 33 - lots of posters have said similar things, it's just you've managed it all in a nutshell.

There's this false dichotomy:
'People who believe in the greater good' Vs. 'Others who think the rules don't apply to them'

Where is there room for those who believe in the greater good but who think we need better rules and a coherent plan and hope for the future?

Where is there room for those who believe in the greater good and have done their absolute best to comply with everything that has been thrown at them, month after month after month, and simply can't do it any more because it has become unbearable and unsustainable?

Where is there room for those who think 'the greater good' is a slippery, politically manipulable concept that doesn't necessarily match the actual needs of actual people including those they love and care about?

Then there's the equating of morality with rigid, unquestioning adherence to all the rules, whatever the rules say. That has very bad historical precedents which I won't go into here because it's even more tasteless than using a situation of bereavement to make a point about morality.

LangClegsInSpace · 15/10/2020 21:56

Why are we bringing in these particular rules? What's it supposed to achieve, specifically? How will we know if it's worked? Has anyone done a SMART analysis?

People will put up with a lot more shit if they're given a reasonably plausible exit strategy and a realistic hope that things won't always be like this.

TheGreatWave · 15/10/2020 21:58

@33goingon64

This whole thread is unbelievable. No-one likes these rules. Absolutely no-one. However it seems that while some people believe in the greater good, others think the rules don't apply to them. Telling the PP who didn't go and comfort her grieving relative that she made a choice and that it doesn't make her morally superior, when we had all been told this was what we all had to do to stop 1000s more deaths, is so unbelievably vile I can't understand how anyone who supports that view can claim they aren't supremely selfish. What about other rules the vast majority of us abide by even though we'd rather not? How is this different?
There is no point telling that PP that she should have gone to see her relatives, that time has passed. Had they asked at the time I hope people would have said "go." There is something inherently wrong that the 'right' thing to do was actually the worst from an individual human pov. This is what people mean when they are concerned about the cost of lockdown.
TheFormattingIsWrong · 15/10/2020 22:02

I'm glad there are some people who can understand what I'm saying.

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GuyFawkesHadTheRightIdea · 15/10/2020 22:02

I complied in March. I won't be complying again. Enough is enough.

borntohula · 15/10/2020 22:06

@gypsywater

Really depressing to read here about people brazenly saying about how they havent followed any restrictions from the start, after another long day providing mental health care to doctors and nurses with PTSD from what they dealt with in ICUs. Some people really do have no humanity. And as for "muzzle" - I despair.
They didn't deal with anything difficult in ICUs before Covid??
acatcalledcatto · 15/10/2020 22:09

@nothingcanhurtmewithmyeyesshut

We dont seem to have much of a health care system now. Unless its covid or a dire emergency no care seems to be available in many areas.

You can't expect people to live like this without seeing other people in person for months on end. The NHS is far more likely to be overwhelmed by the budding mental health crisis than covid at this point.

Don't agree. The hospitals are much more likely to be overwhelmed by COVID than by mental health.

I say this as someone who has had mental health treatment during lockdown, at the highest point of the last wave actually. Me and my extended family have had no problem accessing medical care for anything.

FelineUK · 15/10/2020 22:11

Covid is not going to simply go away - we cannot get an aerosol can of 'Co-vanish' and spray it gone so we have to accept it's here to stay like other viruses and hope one day we'll get a vaccine to that we can safely live with it. Meantime, playing the hokey-cokey is not the solution either. It's just to halt the spread whilst the NHS deals with the numbers. As soon as lockdowns are lifted and people start mixing again, after a few weeks cases will rise again. This is the cycle. We also cannot economically sustain lockdowns. We somehow need to live alongside Covid but take personal and social responsibility to protect ourselves and others, for the sake of our freedom. Lockdown is like, ok people - you've been very naughty so you're going to stay in your room until you behave! But for us to have our freedom it means everybody must do their bit - wear masks, keep distance, be mature and sensible, show the government we can behave so that we're not forced into lockdown after lockdown. Can we do this?

gypsywater · 15/10/2020 22:17

@borntohula
Well, obviously Hmm but I've never had clinicians presenting with PTSD before, which is surely very telling.