Coronavirus outbreaks in England spreading mostly in schools

[herecomesthsun]

Link here

I know it is what many of us have been predicting for some months, so an all too familiar topic.

However, I thought some of you, maybe especially teachers or those from vulnerable families, might be interested in having the article flaaged up.

@MummyOfZog

As a working parent, with a primary school aged child I do NOT think the answer is to simply shut schools. These kids have already missed so much, and with the best will in the world, home school via online methods is just no comparable at this age group (it does, however, work well for university and sixth form subjects) to face to face time. Mainly because learning at this level is less 'books and writing' and more learning through play and practical activities.

However, there are some very easy, simple additional rules I think should be put in place to address some of the social distancing problems in schools. For example, I think all parents should be asked to wear masks during drop-off/pick-up. We have staggered times at our school to reduce the number of people at the school gates, but there are always bunches of parents having a chat and clogging up the area, plus the queue to drop children off is quite long and I do really think masks would be of some minor help here. Yes, its outdoors, but so many parents in the line do not respect the social distancing rules (including teachers, who get v close when they want to have a quick chat about a child I've noticed!)! Teachers should also be asked to wear masks during the drop off/pick ups for their own protection, as they are speaking with many different parents during this time. I know in some schools these things are already happening, but a huge majority aren't and until its in the guidance I don't think those schools will adopt these measures.
I also think the gov should scrap fines for non-attendance at the moment, only for those parents who actively choose to home-school during this period due to covid fears. This might help free up a couple of spaces across a few classes.

We do have masks for drop off and pick up. Plus all parents are managing to social distance.

Schools closing would mean ... a five year old watching seven hours a day of TV, with a quick sandwich lunch. For a month or two, yes. For a year, no way

Absolutely. People need to understand that this is the reality of ‘homeschooling’. It is categorically not good enough,

Human societies normally put children first, not last. There's nothing exemplary or morally admirable about damaging their future lives to protect adults.

And also this.

[quote StatisticalSense]@PinkFondantFancy
There isn't if both parents are insistent on working 9-5 Monday to Friday but if one works 6-2 and the other 2-10 or some work is done at weekends it is possible and exactly what a lot of families who work in lower paid jobs have had to do for years in order to avoid paying for childcare.[/quote]

But most part time and shift jobs now are on the kind of contract where you get 20 hours per week but this can be any time . It's possible to get evening/ night only jobs : but what if the professions that people work in only have 9-5 jobs available ?

@GreyishDays

Looking at number of cases in England it could be students or older school children. It’s not sub 14 yr olds though.

So primary is ok. That at least

Unsurprisingly, The Guardian article is factually wrong and is a total misinterpretation of the data.

The Guardian is hopeless at this stuff

[quote hopsalong]@PlonkItDownNOW

Yes, exactly. At my son's parents evening, we expressed concerns that he'd been crying in the lunch queue because it was too loud. Did he show other sensory issues etc? The teacher said that five of the children had to be taken back to the classroom by an assistant because they couldn't cope with the noise levels. This is a tiny point. But she said she'd never seen anything like this before covid. There are also two children in his class (year one) without special needs who aren't completely potty trained. Children suffer socially in the most basic ways imaginable from being deprived of social LIFE outside the home, which means primarily school. It's nothing short of deprivation and abuse to force young children to spend many months without social interaction or education, or even exercise, parked alone in front of a screen.

There seems to be a fantasy among some people that if schools close children can be home schooled instead. Most people can't do this. My employer isn't going to offer any more flexible working arrangements. Furlough is over. We can't afford for either of us to stop working. We are both meant to be teaching in person. Schools closing would mean us splitting the working week so someone is always at home and a five year old watching seven hours a day of TV, with a quick sandwich lunch. For a month or two, yes. For a year, no way.

There is nothing instinctive or natural about choosing the worst for your own child to reduce the risk of a virus for elderly and sick people that you don't know and haven't met. (The vast majority of elderly and sick people survive covid, even if they get it. So don't let anyone take this as 'condemning the elderly to certain death'.)

Human societies normally put children first, not last. There's nothing exemplary or morally admirable about damaging their future lives to protect adults.

[/quote]
Agree with every word of this

There isn't if both parents are insistent on working 9-5 Monday to Friday but if one works 6-2 and the other 2-10 or some work is done at weekends it is possible

This isn’t about people being ‘insistent’ on the hours they work, but the norms of the industry. My clients expect me to be available in office hours. For pitches, presentations, consultations. None of which are doable while home schooling a child. I can’t rearrange a client presentation for 20 people at 6 in the morning. I can’t do interviews with research partners at 9 at night.

None of this is feasible.

KihoBebiluPute:
"Your child might bring home the virus and infect the rest of the family yes"

NO.
I cannot accept this risk after months of not seeing anyone and being extremely careful to keep myself and my family safe.

I'm no expert but looking at Manchester's figures it is clearly the uni students not school children who are currently the major vector of infection.

There isn't if both parents are insistent on working 9-5 Monday to Friday but if one works 6-2 and the other 2-10 or some work is done at weekends it is possible

You are of course aware that most people don’t set their own working hours?

@MarshaBradyo

Unsurprisingly, The Guardian article is factually wrong and is a total misinterpretation of the data.

The Guardian is hopeless at this stuff

@jcyclops @MarshaBradyo

When you say ‘The guardian’, do you mean the link in the OP? That’s not The Guardian. It’s a local paper called the South whatsit something guardian.

"Human societies normally put children first, not last. There's nothing exemplary or morally admirable about damaging their future lives to protect adults"

Rubbish.
In case of emergency, put your oxygen mask on first before putting it on your child.

@PlonkItDownNOW

go visit Grandma at the weekend

Which is completely allowed, so why you're huffing and puffing about it I don't know.

Yes it's allowed (in some areas). The point being made was that people werensaying that because either their DC , or themselves as teachers , were being exposed to 30 other children every day with no PPE they couldn't see the point of other measures to reduce transmission. Again! It is because of that exposure that people need to wear masks , and maybe think twice before visiting elderly relatives . 'Allowed' or not .

This is all moot. The system will collapse under the weight of staff absence at the current rate. I give it until the end of the month.

I believe this is know as the ‘tragedy of the commons’. Put too much pressure on the system and it fails.

@MarshaBradyo

Unsurprisingly, The Guardian article is factually wrong and is a total misinterpretation of the data.

The Guardian is hopeless at this stuff

It is a local paper, which had pulled together the figures.

I think there is one place where it should have said this month rather than this week.

Otherwise, it does reproduce the PHE bar charts and the information discussed by a PP is on those charts, so I think it is one slip, but otherwise the general argument is pretty much right.

It's really unfortunate that there hasn't been a government led collation of information about outbreaks in schools, both case numbers and outbreaks.

If you think it's important for schools to stay open for your children, you should demand as many children as can (and teachers) wear masks.

At this point it is the only way.

14k infections today.

I don't know who people think will staff the schools when all the teachers are sick? Masks not only reduce transmission but also make the disease milder for the wearer - adult or child.

The figures show that it is clearly the upper age teenagers 18-19 year olds and uni students driving the education surge, not secondary schools. In fact, numbers are very low for the under 16s. "Education" is a very broad sector, so I'm not sure why people are assuming this is schools.

Dd is at uni off campus and covid is ripping through them like wildfire.

Absolutely this. All of this.

We don't know how many children have it because - unlike many universities - we are not testing mildly symptomatic or asymptomatic children.

During the Israeli outbreak they tested students and 60% of positive cases were asymptomatic.

At Northumbria University 770 were positive of which 78 symptomatic. If this is true among schoolchildren too, for every 1 postive case with symptoms there will be approx 10 children who have it asymptomatically. They know because they tested contacts regardless of symptoms.

We don't know because we're not testing but I'd guess for every positive symptomatic case there is at least one asymptomatic based on the best data out there. I suspect that will under rather than overestimate real cases.

@SoUtterlyGroundDown

There isn't if both parents are insistent on working 9-5 Monday to Friday but if one works 6-2 and the other 2-10 or some work is done at weekends it is possible

You are of course aware that most people don’t set their own working hours?

In my province, employers are legally obliged to work with parents whose children are self isolating and/or school closures. They cannot fire someone because they currently cannot work their regular hours due to the pandemic. Flexibility is required from all parties.

I personally believe there will be school closures. Not necessarily for months on end like before, it maybe circuit breaks of a few weeks. I don’t believe the current situation is sustainable.

My friend’s year8 son has had his bubble burst again. So another two weeks off. In 8 weeks, he will have missed 4. I’m lucky neither of my children have been sent home, but as mentioned up thread, they walk, cycle to school so maybe that makes a difference. However, I’m expecting them to be sent home at some point so I’ve spoken to the head (as all my colleagues have) and will have to make arrangements.

I can’t teach in a mask but I try to use the visor as much as possible. The visor is quite shit if you’re standing at the front of the class because of the screen reflecting on it. I can’t see the kids properly and they can’t see my eyes so I end up taking it off unless I have to give one on one support. I doubt this protects me. The kids cannot leave their seats so all interactive learning is gone. I’ve had all the windows open but it’s starting the get cold and the kids are complaining. A colleague (we call her Covid Queen) follows the rules to a T and her kids are sitting in their coats all day. I can’t do that - I’d be uncomfortable to sit in my coat all day so we’re thinking of maybe allowing hoodies to be worn over school jumpers...

I wish we could hibernate and wake up in March (it had better be over by then!!)

@Eng123

Schools are essential. They represent the future of this country, they are a generation already challenged by the follies of their parents generation politically, economically, environmentally and socially. If it means restrictions on socialising then so be it.

THIS THIS THIS.

By the time the global carbon budget is gone and the environmental effects of climate change can't be changed, my oldest child will only be 12 (if we don't burn through it faster). Her future is going to be HARD. I want her in education, learning amongst her peers and being a part of our community. These formative experiences for her socially are so much of what she is going to have to rely on as the world we know currently breaks down.

Their future is HARD, let's not deprive them of their education as well.

The figures show that it is clearly the upper age teenagers 18-19 year olds and uni students driving the education surge, not secondary schools

There's a surge in cases in 10-19 year olds, and broken down further, a clear rise in years 7-11.

Here oh right I read the thread quickly and pp jumped out as generally I’m finding The Guardian annoying and bordering on spin

ButI just opened link I can see it’s a different paper

This article calls two or more cases in a school an outbreak. It is also only looking at outbreaks in institutions. It doesn't include spread in the home.
Two cases in one school could come from one family. I'm really not sure that this article shows it is mainly spreading in schools.