We may have to give up more to keep them open

[notevenat20]

From the BBC quoting Ferguson this morning

"We think that infections are probably increasing, doubling every two weeks or so, in some areas faster than that, maybe every seven days," he said.

The former government adviser said the "most important" measure to drive down infections was reducing contact between households.

He said schools should be kept open, but "we may have to give up more to keep them open"."

Can we give up any more?

People with no children have spent decades...............

a. being told they are entitled to less benefits when unemployed because they dont have kids.
b. being told they are not entitled to decent housing because they dont have kids (ive actually heard people say online and in RL that its terrible how families are having to live in shipping containers but its ok for single people and those without children)
c. People without kids being told/made to work the shitty shifts over Christmas, e,g, Christmas Eve, Boxing Day, etc, There are threads about it on here going back years.

Im NOT saying all parents are like this...................but it does happen a lot. So some of those without children may well say No. Enough. A step too far.

If you’re not in a local lockdown area where household mixing is banned, then I can’t see how school can dictate no indoor playdates.

It is banned where I am, but I’d say there are loads of people ignoring it.
Lots of schools have cases and I can’t see them getting numbers down unless they bring in stricter rules.

To elaborate as a parent of tween/teens if we move to a non mixing of households that will severely affect many kids social lives and also affect seeing wider family possibly for months.

I’m just raising the point where is the line if we’re talking about kids wellbeing? At what point does it become too restrictive? Yes I’m sure there are kids who are happy enough just with school but many have more fun outside of it.

As I said everything is a balance /trade off.

@MarshaBradyo I’m actually astounded a school have suggested this. See for me and many others I’m sure I know my kids would miss out on so much more if they were banned from mixing with friends outside of lessons. Break times aren’t that long.

@halcyondays

If you’re not in a local lockdown area where household mixing is banned, then I can’t see how school can dictate no indoor playdates.

It is banned where I am, but I’d say there are loads of people ignoring it.
Lots of schools have cases and I can’t see them getting numbers down unless they bring in stricter rules.

It’s not dictated from the school as such. It’s from the pta. I don’t know how many ignore it, but everyone goes along with the other stuff (masks) without that being enforced.

People are probably glad the school hasn’t had any bubbles shut down or staff off so keep going with it.

[quote Oaktree55]@MarshaBradyo I’m actually astounded a school have suggested this. See for me and many others I’m sure I know my kids would miss out on so much more if they were banned from mixing with friends outside of lessons. Break times aren’t that long.[/quote]
It’s not the school. It’s the pta. Children play outside after school together, everyone is happy it seems with lower disruption.

@MarshaBradyo I don’t see how that’s practical over winter? Ages of kids too impact on meeting outside the whole time?

Maybe in summer but since most teens like to shop/coffee shop etc or go to friends houses I can’t practically imagine how it’s possible to continue that over U.K. winter.

So Oak forgive me if I'm wrong.

You are in a position to homeschool and are doing so.

You now want all schools to close so that the children who miss their last years at school have a job to go to (yeah thats going to happen).

But most importantly you want schools to close so your kids can socialise.

30 hours of education, fun and socialisation or a 2 hour playmate?

Oaktree it’s not teens, it’s primary. I have to take younger dc out a lot in winter weather so am used to it.

They’ve been back five weeks and all ok so far. Good if staff are in etc. I didn’t ask for it but others did, seems to be working. I don’t know if it will change over winter, but will see.

@notevenat20

Ferguson has zero credibility so I would take anything he says with a pinch of salt.

I know this is sometimes said online but I really don't agree. This view is normally was associated with distortions of what his papers have said. The paper from march had a mean estimate of 250,000 deaths if the govt didn't lock down at all. We had around 60,000 excess deaths with the lockdown so it doesn't look far off to me.

Where's the actual evidence that the two are connected, given that infections were already decreasing by the time we locked down and death totals started following a short while later?

When did "flatten the curve" become "eliminate the virus"?

I am really not prepared to give up any more in favour of this virus... or having shools open and everything else closed? How is it going to work?
As of 1st November, both DH and me will be unemployed. There are very limited jobs available with 100's of applicants... we already have applied for 50+ jobs between us... we had 3 interviews... no job offers.

We have a mortgage to pay, children to feed and clothe... as it looks, we will join the queue for the foodbank.

@Timeforanotherusername I don’t want schools to close I’m pointing out the realities of the situation we are in. It’s v likely Gov will bring in a no mixing of households rule as was leaked in Guardian yesterday. I was raising the point for discussion that we will at some point need to assess at what point do we say the trade offs are too much.

Yes I get irritated by many who clearly aren’t honest about their motives and don’t bother to look at the wider picture merely stamp their feet saying “schools must remain open 100% for all”

Do you think it’s as beneficial for kids to miss out on socialising and seeing extended family to sit in lessons 100% of the time?

This has nothing to do with my situation I just get frustrated that most don’t think more widely about what they are demanding.

1/4 of England are currently under restrictions which prevent indoor play dates. I’m shocked people are so ignorant about this stuff. My kids can’t have indoor play dates, but they can go to school.

What I take issue with is the lack of honesty. If people said I want schools open full time as I can’t stand the little sh at home etc then fine I have no issue.

Yeah that’s the only benefit to having a state education system. So lazy parents don’t have to deal with their children. It doesn’t benefit children at all, we’re all just lying because we hate our own. God forbid we close Wetherspoons though!

@MarshaBradyo then I understand that younger kids are perfectly happy splashing about in the park in the rain but from my experience it doesn’t work as kids get older, in this country at least.

If I’m being honest then I find it frustrating people want the situation to bend to their preference (homeschool). None of your reasons apply here Oaktree (little shit etc).

It really comes down to dc enjoying school more than on screen learning. And yes their mh. It doesn’t phase me if other dc are happier h/s since they can.

As long as outside exercise etc is prioritised then good. Taking that away is detrimental and it was the wrong thing to do in Spain and didn’t help.

When did "flatten the curve" become "eliminate the virus"?

‘Suppress’ rather than ‘eliminate’, but the answer is ‘in March’, when the governments modelling said that carrying on with ‘flattening the curve’ would see ICUs running at 8x capacity and we could only avoid that with a lockdown.

We shouldn’t need endless rolling lockdowns because a competent government should have put a better public health system in place to test and trace and get people to isolate, but we are where we are.

[quote Oaktree55]@MarshaBradyo then I understand that younger kids are perfectly happy splashing about in the park in the rain but from my experience it doesn’t work as kids get older, in this country at least.[/quote]
Teen dc still meets up outside but yep this will likely change with bad weather. I don’t think their school / pta could ask it. Different vibe to primary. Not so willing to do it.

@TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince

Qasd, you are out of touch.

All schools have had to have training in delivery of online lessons. All pupils know which groups they are in shoukd schools have to switch to only be learning.

And the unions no longer have that stance.

All schools have to be ready to do online teaching, there has been no mass programme of external training to facilitate this.

@MarshaBradyo

If I’m being honest then I find it frustrating people want the situation to bend to their preference (homeschool). None of your reasons apply here Oaktree (little shit etc).

It really comes down to dc enjoying school more than on screen learning. And yes their mh. It doesn’t phase me if other dc are happier h/s since they can.

As long as outside exercise etc is prioritised then good. Taking that away is detrimental and it was the wrong thing to do in Spain and didn’t help.

Completely agree.

Just because it's theoretically possible for kids to do their work remotely, it doesn't mean they should.

I am still aghast at the those Spanish children's faces looking out of the windows of their flats and not being allowed out for weeks. For NO reason.

@AldiAisleofCrap

We need to stop the obsession with keeping schools open and close them. Secondary schools at least.

How are year 11 and 13 going to get their qualifications?

@MarshaBradyo everyone’s situation is different but the reality is everyone depends on the economy even kids currently at school.

It’s honestly nothing to do with bending a situation to suit my purposes. I am able though to objectively look at the situation our country is in and say there comes a point where shutting everything down to enable full time attendance is to everyone’s detriment longer term.

It makes little difference to my personal situation. I just get annoyed people can’t see the bigger picture. I’m not necessarily talking about individuals but there has been a hiding behind “education and kids mental health”. We need to at least recognise that closing more to keep schools open or banning mixing further will perhaps have a greater impact on many children (although obviously perhaps not yours).

That’s my whole argument which I’m clearly not expressing very eloquently. It’s a trade off.

Do not you think that the education and welfare of the next generation might impact on the economy in some way?

They aren’t going to be kids forever...

There really are no good options, they're all grim/bad ones with heavy impact, it's trying to make the Hobson's Choice of which are the least grim ones under the circumstances.

They need now to let parents take children out of school and home ed if there are vulnerable people in the family without losing places or fines: that one I don't get at all, it's ridiculous. The September (last minute) guidance for schools implied that in serious crisis the govt would look at a staged response for schools with secondaries going to rota based learning first, with time in school and time at home: those students more likely to be able to access home learning and I suppose to be home alone if necessary without adults needing to stop work. Next step would be secondaries going entirely to home learning if need be. The plan looked like primaries and Special Schools (and nurseries although that was less clear) being kept fully open until the point of total lockdown where it would return to vulnerable/keyworker kids only.

If spread in primaries ends up being admitted as considerably worse than expected in September, another logical step would be to remove all fines and let all primary parents choose if they have the ability to and want to take their children out of school and home teach, which would drop the numbers a little and make it safer for those left. Likewise for parents to choose if they want to pull their children out of nursery and preschool provision until things are going better without the place/funding being lost.

[quote Oaktree55]@MarshaBradyo everyone’s situation is different but the reality is everyone depends on the economy even kids currently at school.

It’s honestly nothing to do with bending a situation to suit my purposes. I am able though to objectively look at the situation our country is in and say there comes a point where shutting everything down to enable full time attendance is to everyone’s detriment longer term.

It makes little difference to my personal situation. I just get annoyed people can’t see the bigger picture. I’m not necessarily talking about individuals but there has been a hiding behind “education and kids mental health”. We need to at least recognise that closing more to keep schools open or banning mixing further will perhaps have a greater impact on many children (although obviously perhaps not yours).

That’s my whole argument which I’m clearly not expressing very eloquently. It’s a trade off.[/quote]
But it’s not just me. The dc at my children’s school are happier. The parents asked to do more to help staff stay in (I didn’t instigate it it or even think of it so not me thinking of my dc first).

I can only really speak about my dc primary school around that issue but it’s really not hiding behind excuses around mh. It is their mh.

I do take issue with the idea that people are just talking flakily about education and mh.