We may have to give up more to keep them open

[notevenat20]

From the BBC quoting Ferguson this morning

"We think that infections are probably increasing, doubling every two weeks or so, in some areas faster than that, maybe every seven days," he said.

The former government adviser said the "most important" measure to drive down infections was reducing contact between households.

He said schools should be kept open, but "we may have to give up more to keep them open"."

Can we give up any more?

If you are talking about a general plan then yes it is subject to change but overall trying to balance between keeping economy open and not overwhelming healthcare provision.

It’s going to be a hard balance through that over winter.

@MarshaBradyo it’s my opinion yes that schools in many areas will be 2 weeks on two weeks off over winter. I don’t recall what tier that is.

[quote Oaktree55]@MarshaBradyo you are one of many who clearly like to feel an element of control which is understandable. If you think however that banning play dates will stop Covid spread when kids are 8 hours plus in badly ventilated classrooms, unmasked, then you’re not being scientific in your thinking. If your school has escaped burst bubbles it’s luck not judgement.[/quote]
Nope I said it may or may not have done anything. But I’m fine with giving it a go as It could help and I’m glad there’s been no closures or staff absence.

I think we’ve been lucky so far and I’ll take luck at this point.

I see so many messages about oh you’re trotting our mh etc it’s because you don’t want your dc around and it’s rubbish really. It’s not correct, and it motivates me to post.

I’m not pro part time or screen learning but would be happy with other mitigation.

@MarshaBradyo maybe but it’s pretty evident neither you nor I are at risk of unemployment or other real detrimental effects from this Pandemic so both your and my opinion is superfluous to real life to an extent. Wider thinking required.

[quote Oaktree55]@MarshaBradyo maybe but it’s pretty evident neither you nor I are at risk of unemployment or other real detrimental effects from this Pandemic so both your and my opinion is superfluous to real life to an extent. Wider thinking required.[/quote]
Oaktree in first post you’ll see I’m not for sectors closing. They are interlinked and even if no one here works in closed sectors it will impact further. So I wouldn’t close hospitality and reintroduce furlough, plus debt is too big already.

I have said a few times I’m glad Sunak is on the side of open economy (as it is with mitigation) and has a strong voice in that corner.

@MarshaBradyo fair enough but something will eventually have to give this winter. Tile will tell.

I agree I think we’ll see more restrictions around indoor household mixing but there isn’t much room and it’s hard to enforce. Maybe some schools in tier 2.

I don’t disagree it’s going to be tough

Just a question: why is blended learning not an option for over 13s (who have the biggest growth in cases at the moment).

Surely there isn’t a child care issue there. I can’t understand this insistence on full time school or nothing when it is clear that the cost of full time school is massive damage to the economy and the lives of adults. Surely it is a balance.

Why is it more important for kids to socialise and get full time face to face than it is for the elderly to see their family?

I really don't understand what people on this thread can not grasp - homeschooling/ remote learning isn't viable for the most vulnerable of children who have no computer/ pen/ paper/ table at home to learn with! Plus factor in neglectful and abusive home environments which many experience. School is a sanctuary for the most vulnerable.

@MarshaBradyo all of the school opening is based on outdated data and politics not science. It’s likely to change. From a work place H&S perspective schooling has to change now PHE has formally recognised airborne even if it’s masks and further weight to ventilation.

@MileyWiley vulnerable children have always had school open to them along with key workers. I agree re laptops etc. As Italy have done we need to ensure all children have access.

@MileyWiley

Those students have already been identified in our blended learning provision. They will be offered spaces in school with extra support. We’ve already sourced ICT solutions for them.

I’m not sure why people assume that schools don’t know who these kids are. It’s part of our safeguarding remit to identify and support these students. Any school who is found to not have robust safeguarding measures fails its OFSTED.

Oaktree I’m fine with ventilation sounds good. Masks a question around optimal time (ie short v a school day) but other countries use them so good to look at that. Scientist on R4 talked about decreasing viral load which swayed me again.

Dc wear masks for short periods for corridors / lessons etc and no issues, all fine with it.

Schools need to stay open because some children don't even have the technology to learn from home. Some parents don't have the skills to support their learning. Some are working too hard during the day to supervise them properly. Children have already sacrificed so much and for those that don't want to sacrifice more for the children's sake well you are an adult...

@MarshaBradyo I’m just trying to get people to think beyond the middle class privilege which dominates here. Yes some kids may be “happier” at school but in the scheme of choices we have coming up between unemployment etc some children being “happier” at school needs rethinking in so many ways when there is so much more at stake. Kids are very adaptable, adults more set in their ways.

We all need to have a big think beyond our individual situations. That’s all I’m trying to convey. We can’t have it all and what might be best for our kids long term might require some initial “hardship”

@MileyWiley we already have plans in place to protect those students. At the moment those are the students with parents who are already keeping them off to isolate rather than test, giving them a fortnight off rather than do anything. This constant and now ridiculous situation here in Manchester is meaning that those who need school most are being kept at home by their useless, reckless and sometimes neglectful and abusive parents, but our hands are tied as they are following the law.

If we could bring in blended learning for secondary schools we can reduce the number of bodies in the building, reduce possible transmission (which is happening in schools; we see further cases in every bubble we have sent home now, plus 4 asymptomatic who had parents just test them anyway) and give a stable timetable to all of our students. Our kids all have school issued Chromebooks, we have given out dongles for internet access and we have an extensive plan for your vulnerable students.

I honestly have no idea why my 6th formers are in school all day, in classes of up to 24 mixing in corridors with 5 other year groups, eating from the same canteen, sitting in the same (but frequently sanitised) seats, getting public buses etc when the 6th form colleges that we can see from our own windows have their students in for 2 days a week, with online learning the rest of the time.

@worksleep
It's really not that simple. You really cannot expect anybody, especially those without children, to sacrifice having a roof over their head or being able to eat in order to protect children from any impact. Unfortunate as it may be this is exactly the sacrifice we would be asking many to make if we closed the industry that they work in for a second time.

Personally I think at a minimum schools need to be brought in line with the covid measures other places have in place BEFORE those places are shut 'to protect schools'.

It seems more than a little unfair to businesses that have invested time, effort and money into ensuring social distancing and mask wearing are enforced to suggest they should give up their livelihoods because there are no masks or SD in schools. And the government won't do anything about it.

Many businesses are on the brink of going under as it is.

i don't like this pitting generations against each other. Children are already hated enough if the internet is anything to go by

Oaktree actually I think it’s the disadvantaged that suffer most out of school for a variety of reasons (DV, loss of learning etc).

And I agree with Whitty when he says the same about the cost of closing schools is too high for them, and all children. So I do agree with the general approach not just for my family or setting.

And generally I don’t want in unemployment or debt to be higher so pro economy open.

I’m pretty much on board with the line taken by government, Sunak and Whitty particularly.

I’m just trying to get people to think beyond the middle class privilege which dominates here. Yes some kids may be “happier” at school but in the scheme of choices we have coming up between unemployment etc some children being “happier” at school needs rethinking in so many ways when there is so much more at stake. Kids are very adaptable, adults more set in their ways.

That is very much a speech from the middle classes. Working class people often can't work from home and we also get fired very quickly, that is if we are not working on zero hours contracts to start with. We need our children to go to school full time.

@IloveJKRowling

Also, though I am a mother to school aged children, I don't think it's going to help social cohesion that much if those without school aged children are expected to give up relatively non risky activities that they love (such as restaurants or gym) in order that children can be crammed in schools as normal with no mitigation (such as that found in restaurants and gyms)

You are correct it's a lot to ask people to give up gyms/restaurants when most transmission isn't happening in these places, appears to be happening in education/university and care home settings.

Its a weird thinking that it is a either or situation and why should businesses be closed to keep schools open when transmission isn't happening in their business.

[quote Oaktree55]@MarshaBradyo I’m just trying to get people to think beyond the middle class privilege which dominates here. Yes some kids may be “happier” at school but in the scheme of choices we have coming up between unemployment etc some children being “happier” at school needs rethinking in so many ways when there is so much more at stake. Kids are very adaptable, adults more set in their ways.

We all need to have a big think beyond our individual situations. That’s all I’m trying to convey. We can’t have it all and what might be best for our kids long term might require some initial “hardship”[/quote]
That is funny!

It is so obvious from your post that you are middle class and privileged!

Your lack of understanding of the importance of school for so many children is the perfect example.

My kids don't go to a posh school. Many of the children would be classed as vulnerable. Its a great school and what they have done over lockdown is amazing and so much better than other local schools.

They will do everything they can yo engage the children who need school the most - but there is only so much you can do from a distance.

@notevenat20

What about those on zero hours in leisure, hospitality, the arts, any of the services sectors?

All those things will have to stay shut for schools to remain fully open. Is blended learning so much worse (50/50 school for older years) than full time that you would support keeping school open even if it pulls those sectors to their knees?

What will children do once everyone in the household is out of a job?