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Covid

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The average age of people who die of Covid is apparently older than British life expectancy. This can't be true can it?

300 replies

Treesofwood · 05/10/2020 19:36

I've tried to find data rather than just a tweet and I can't. I did find something about the median age of deaths in France being 81. This can't be true either, surely? Median being the middle number if they were all lined up.
I knew it disproportionately impacted older people obviously, but surprised by this data.

OP posts:
MangoFeverDream · 07/10/2020 11:46

But people of African heritage, who have no Neanderthal "genes", are more at risk if they get covid. So not sure how your post can be true

Africans in Africa are not all that affected by the disease. It could be those of African heritage have some lifestyle or structural reasons for their higher risk.

Darker skin in northern climes could definitely be one of those risks, as they won’t be as efficient in producing Vitamin D.

Interestingly, Northern Chinese are said to have a high percentage of Neanderthal heritage.

RationalOne · 07/10/2020 11:48

Indeed, for the vast majority it is a very mild disease....but

Fear.... ramped to the maximum

Economy trashed, massive number of jobs lost

Feels crazy

blueberrypie0112 · 07/10/2020 13:49

Native Americans did not have the immunity build up when colonists brought in flu, measles and smallpox, they couldn’t do herd immunity at all. Colonists survived just fine.

None of us have immunity against Coronavirus either , although some can survive just fine. I rather wait for a vaccine to build my immunity.

Fetaliving · 07/10/2020 14:00

[quote MangoFeverDream]Also, I hate it when posters imply that ‘experts’ have a unified voice on this topic. They absolutely do not. Many have advocated for herd immunity strategy from the beginning (like in Sweden) while others have come to recognise that it’s probably the only way to go unless an effective vaccine comes out.

Here are experts who believe herd immunity is the best option: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8810977/Coronavirus-Anti-lockdown-petition-calling-herd-immunity-reaches-30-000-signatures.html[/quote]
It’s not many it’s a small minority. And they’re not “top” experts, they have vested interests.

Trusting them is akin to trusting the small number of scientists who are climate change deniers.

bylinetimes.com/2020/09/23/scamademics-right-wing-lobbying-groups-reviving-herd-immunity-in-the-uk/

MangoFeverDream · 07/10/2020 14:23

Native Americans did not have the immunity build up when colonists brought in flu, measles and smallpox, they couldn’t do herd immunity at all

The point is that you can’t compare smallpox, which killed about a third infected, with COVID, which kills less than 1% in the majority of age group.

Herd immunity is possible with COVID without mass death, but not with smallpox or bubonic plague.

MangoFeverDream · 07/10/2020 14:32

It’s not many it’s a small minority

Signatories are over 6,000 from all over the world. And those signatories are not cranks, but have top positions in universities. Scott Atlas, another prominent critic of lockdowns, is a professor at Stanford University.

Even the discredited WHO has praised Sweden’s approach.

And they’re not “top” experts, they have vested interests

All 6000? And what are those ‘vested’ interests?

Trusting them is akin to trusting the small number of scientists who are climate change deniers

False. It is the efficacy of lockdowns that need proof, as the evidence is thin. They are not shown definitely to work because it was not how you dealt with pandemics in the past.

Flaxmeadow · 07/10/2020 15:17

Native Americans did not have the immunity build up when colonists brought in flu, measles and smallpox, they couldn’t do herd immunity at all. Colonists survived just fine

Not sure about survived just fine. Smallpox, and to some extent measles, was a big cause of premature death in Europe. You can see this in 18th century parish registers, when cause of death was noted

The plagues/black death and syphilis are thought to have come to Europe from the east. Any movement of any people will spread disease. Not sure how it's completely avoidable, especially now when we have so much cheap international travel, especially for leisure

SheepandCow · 07/10/2020 16:15

People are seriously suggesting that Japan took no mitigation measures???!

Closing their borders was a major mitigation.

And yes the mask wearing culture also helped. A Japanese friend of mine says one of the main reasons they've long worn masks when ill (pre pandemic) is out of courtesy and consideration to other people.

They don't like the thought of making someone else ill. It's a very civic minded country. Which is why some of their restrictions could be voluntary instead of mandatory. Everyone adhered to the guidelines voluntarily. Unlike here.

They also have a very good healthcare system.

MangoFeverDream · 07/10/2020 16:31

And yes the mask wearing culture also helped. A Japanese friend of mine says one of the main reasons they've long worn masks when ill (pre pandemic) is out of courtesy and consideration to other people

Have you seen the trains? No social distancing is possible. WFH is not culturally accepted in most companies. They have also been holding sporting events and the government cannot force closures of restaurants and bars, so when cases were going up in Tokyo, the government merely made a suggestion.

An awful lot of businesses ignored it.

SheepandCow · 07/10/2020 16:34

Japan can cope with crowded trains because they took other measures to successfully contain the spread.

Voluntary compliance and closed borders played a major role in their containment.

SheepandCow · 07/10/2020 16:37

Japan at one stage called a state of emergency.

They absolutely took measures.

Hence their number of deaths is around 1,600 whilst ours is approx 45,000.

Mistigri · 07/10/2020 16:38

Life expectancy may be 80-81 on average but that's life expectancy at birth.

Someone of my mum's age in good health has a life expectancy of 5-10 years. And I sincerely hope that she gets to live out the rest of her life and isn't taken from me by virus deniers.

SheepandCow · 07/10/2020 16:42

@RationalOne

Indeed, for the vast majority it is a very mild disease....but

Fear.... ramped to the maximum

Economy trashed, massive number of jobs lost

Feels crazy

Yep. Failure to contain Covid = trashed economy.

We know the countries who took effective containment measures now have better functioning economies (and society in general).

Shortsightedness at it's worse over here unfortunately.

MangoFeverDream · 07/10/2020 16:44

I also should say that many Japanese were deeply conspiratorial towards the government. Lots of people thought that they were hiding deaths (excess deaths counts showed this was false) and that they denied tests because they didn’t want to scupper the Tokyo Olympics (can’t say, but you still really can’t get tested unless you fit some very strict guidelines).

MangoFeverDream · 07/10/2020 16:47

Japan at one stage called a state of emergency. They absolutely took measures

Closures were completely voluntary and plenty of businesses ignored it. Also, most companies did not allow WFH.

NRatched · 07/10/2020 16:48

Japan appear to have sorted their numbers primarily via backtracing contacts. Not what we are doing, we are catching infections then trying to get contacts after this, which is the wrong approach seemingly. All I have read today tells me this is entirely the correct approach (backtracing), regardless of whatever measures a country has in place. There is a lot of evidence that covid spread is not equal like a influenza one would be. Nowhere near. In short, flu spreads in a predictable way. Covid seems to be primarily spread by superspreader events. Many countries have lowered their numbers by looking back over contacts to find out where a positive person was infected, instead of focusing on who they might infect. There seems to be a lot of evidence that other similar pathogens spread in a similar 'random cluster here' type way. SARS did similar. Locating where these superspreader events take place, helps a lot more than tracing contacts of people after the fact. Because it is thought its quite likely (and evidence so far from this pandemic seems to back this up too) that a large majority of people don't spread, or spread to one person. Where these events can and do infect loads at a time. Its been the explanation for a load of weird things stats wise, the random jump for North Korea (brought under control again of course, but there was a totally random very quick rise that seemed odd) being one of them. And also potentially explains why some places were hit SO badly at first while others weren't. And even now, how place jump quickly from very low cases, to doubling quickly, at seemingly random stages that look odd when compared to other data. I would use Scotland as an example here. It seems unlikely to me that scotland did so well and got cases down to near non existant levels, but then everything sprialled out of control SO quickly. A superspreader event, or a couple, would explain this very well where otherwise, such random jumps look odd in comparison.

I cannot explain this well at all as it was all new to me, as had never even thought of backtracing and while I had heard about superspreaders, I did not realise quite how much there was to read/learn about them.

Anyone with a lot of spare time who has any interest

www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/09/k-overlooked-variable-driving-pandemic/616548/

It makes so much sense and does answer a lot of questions I have seen regularly too. Might not be right, but sounds that way given SARS behaved the same.

This was a light in my day, someone posting that link and me spending a few hours reading it (and a lot of the studies referenced) as everything seemed bleak and no end in sight like. But this, is a gamechanger IMO and could have potential to help us SO much. More evidence is emerging about spread too that back up this superspreader thing. Genuinely I was starting to come to the conclusion its lockdown totally or 'herd immunity', neither of which I find a good idea,or feasible either. But this gave me actual hope that it might be possible to sort. If we change the way we test and trace. Given current system is shambles, changing it up somewhat cannot be much worse.

NRatched · 07/10/2020 16:52

All I have read today tells me this is entirely the correct approach (backtracing), regardless of whatever measures a country has in place.

That bit is not me saying there should be no estrictions. I think we quite obviously should have some restrictions at present.

SheepandCow · 07/10/2020 16:52

@MangoFeverDream

It’s not many it’s a small minority

Signatories are over 6,000 from all over the world. And those signatories are not cranks, but have top positions in universities. Scott Atlas, another prominent critic of lockdowns, is a professor at Stanford University.

Even the discredited WHO has praised Sweden’s approach.

And they’re not “top” experts, they have vested interests

All 6000? And what are those ‘vested’ interests?

Trusting them is akin to trusting the small number of scientists who are climate change deniers

False. It is the efficacy of lockdowns that need proof, as the evidence is thin. They are not shown definitely to work because it was not how you dealt with pandemics in the past.

Harold Shipman was a doctor. Nazi fascist eugenicists were scientists. I'd rather we didn't emulate their sickening world views.

Meanwhile normal moral doctors (with economic foresight) - those who actually specialise in viruses, and those who are on the front line dealing with Covid say different to the far right conspiracy theorist Covid Deniers.

Lockdowns weren't how pandemics were dealt with in the past?? Confused
Oh but they were. There are documented writings on the medieval plague where villages sealed off from elsewhere - either to keep the virus from spreading out (if they were already infected) or to stop it coming in.

Likewise the Spanish flu. Read up on it.

Then to the modern day. Countries who have taken effective containment measures now have freely operating societies - schools, hospitals, offices, shops, bars, pubs, restaurants, gyms, sporting and entertainment venues.

They locked down, contained it, and have now opened up. Caveat of course is they had proper lockdowns - and with restricted borders.

SheepandCow · 07/10/2020 16:57

@MangoFeverDream

Japan at one stage called a state of emergency. They absolutely took measures

Closures were completely voluntary and plenty of businesses ignored it. Also, most companies did not allow WFH.

They didn't ignore it during the national state of emergency. Japan is not the sort of society to do that. There's a lot of social pressure to be civic minded and think of others.

They also have good hygiene habits ingrained in them, and an excellent healthcare system.

You keep ignoring the elephant in the room. They closed their borders. That played a major role in containing the spread.

Enoughnowstop · 07/10/2020 16:59

We have utterly trashed our whole way of life for want of a bit of critical thinking

Hospitals were struggling back in March. If we allow this to rip through us, our whole way of life will grind to a halt. Hospitals will be over flowing. In all areas of life, people will be sick and off work. Food won’t get delivered. Essential services won’t be repaired quickly - gas, electric, water, sewage. Schools will close. Crime rates will rise when panic sets in. Rubbish won’t be collected. It will end up with military intervention.

SheepandCow · 07/10/2020 17:00

@MangoFeverDream

But people of African heritage, who have no Neanderthal "genes", are more at risk if they get covid. So not sure how your post can be true

Africans in Africa are not all that affected by the disease. It could be those of African heritage have some lifestyle or structural reasons for their higher risk.

Darker skin in northern climes could definitely be one of those risks, as they won’t be as efficient in producing Vitamin D.

Interestingly, Northern Chinese are said to have a high percentage of Neanderthal heritage.

Most African countries had the foresight to take strict containment measures - to prevent the spread in the first place. Including for many countries, closed borders and mask wearing.
SheepandCow · 07/10/2020 17:02

@Enoughnowstop

We have utterly trashed our whole way of life for want of a bit of critical thinking

Hospitals were struggling back in March. If we allow this to rip through us, our whole way of life will grind to a halt. Hospitals will be over flowing. In all areas of life, people will be sick and off work. Food won’t get delivered. Essential services won’t be repaired quickly - gas, electric, water, sewage. Schools will close. Crime rates will rise when panic sets in. Rubbish won’t be collected. It will end up with military intervention.

Very true. Unfortunately some people seem unable to see beyond the middle of next week.
Ecosse · 07/10/2020 17:02

@SheepandCow

I appreciate that you are a lockdown fanatic, but to state that the most successful countries have been those with the toughest lockdowns is just nonsense.

South Korea and Japan have never locked down at all, but have controlled the situation effectively with a working test and trace system.

You then have countries like Italy and Germany that had poor outcomes at the start of the pandemic (with lockdowns) but again are now managing things with a test and trace system.

Contrast that with Spain which had the longest and harshest lockdown in the world and cases have been spiralling out of control ever since they opened up.

NRatched · 07/10/2020 17:04

Unsure on the border thing, but its right that they didn't have a lockdown. As such. Similar to Sweden, the residents were trusted to take advice, and largely did without it being mandated to

Japan, however, has never enforced a lockdown with penalties, even when a national state of emergency was declared on April 15 in an expansion of the state of emergency for Tokyo and six other prefectures declared earlier on April 7. Instead, the government “requested” that people refrain from going out and that restaurants and bars suspend their business, without ever forcing them to close down. This soft approach was enough to achieve a de facto lockdown as people practiced risk aversion rather than bearing responsibility for spreading the virus, and those who feared social sanctions bowed to social pressure.

www.nippon.com/en/in-depth/d00592/

Unsure on the source, but the words seem largely correct, and even mention the cluster based backtracing thing that helped them hugely that I was just attempting to describe.

It seems a bit nonsensical to me to keep comparing countries that are hugely different, both in terms of customs, population and in terms of trust in their government too.

I think 'the answer is lockdown' is a bit simplistic though tbh too.

MangoFeverDream · 07/10/2020 17:05

Japan is not the sort of society to do that. There's a lot of social pressure to be civic minded and think of others

You have a very stereotyped view of Japan. I lived there for many years, I can tell you that they are not as compliant as you believe.

Businesses like pubs and restaurants were told
to close but a lot did not comply and the government had no way to force them to shut.