I'm so angry...

[MaryShelley1818]

We are in an area with local restrictions so high transmission rates in the North East of England.

Someone I know had her 40th at the weekend and photos on FB of her having a party in a pub, cake presents, her and kids, her parents, her sister who works at a local University in a very high position, and about 4-5 friends. No Social Distancing, drinking, cuddling, shots, photos.
How are people just carrying on as normal??!! How can you be so bloody thick as to post all the photos on FB. Am I missing something?? I'm furious.

We've followed every single rule but seems I'm in the minority and the longer people just do whatever they want for, the longer I'll have to go without seeing my friends and family.

@Msmcc1212

The trouble is the more people that don’t follow the guidelines the more chance of tighter controls going forward. Those of us following the guidelines are then confined even more.

Whether or not you agree with the scientists, government or people on MN about the response to the Pandemic and even if you don’t care about the potential trauma and death caused by the virus spreading unchecked, it’s selfish to party on and ignore the rules because it is likely to cause tighter restrictions for us all.

We sorry I agree with different scientists - ones that aren't going to make huge amounts of cash from a vaccine. Ones that are highly respected within their communities, unlike Whitty and Valance with their investments in vaccines or Ferguson with his ridiculous projections that have been wrong by a number of zeros every time

YANBU OP
Also agree with Msmcc1212.
The higher that cases get, the more likely lockdowns become. If you don't want a lockdown, stick to the rules and we're much less likely to get one!

I don't want restrictions on households mixing, I don't want schools/restaurants/pubs/cinemas to close, but that's where we'll be if we don't keep a lid on the levels. I feel sorry for the businesses.

I'm a Labour voter and think the government's handling of this has been farcical. But I still think we need to stick to the rules. The NHS struggles over winter normally without putting covid into the mix (we all know this, surely?). We need to suppress it as much as we can and keep levels within a limit the NHS can cope with. Keeping community levels low is also the best way to protect the most vulnerable in our society, and to keep the economy ticking over.

I know that BoJo and Dishy Rishi have not actually turned into closet socialists (if only haha) so if even they are recognising this, it must be serious. To those that say the NHS is not currently overwhelmed, and that deaths are low - both are creeping up and there is a 2-3 week time lag generally between catching covid and needing hospital treatment (for those that need it). So by the time the NHS is stretched, it's way too late. Plus there's long covid to consider and all the awful implications of that.

Even Sweden who some hold up as a paragon of marvellousness in terms of how they have dealt with this have got recommendations on social distancing (with reportedly high compliance, better than I think we have here), guidance on working from home where possible etc.

So I think it is counter intuitive to argue that it is justifiable to 'fuck the new normal' and socially gather when that is almost guaranteed to prolong the most severe lockdown restrictions and economic pain.

I don’t disagree with most of what you say. But for me, where I live, the “new normal” is being unable to legally meet anyone outside my household. Much as I adore DD and DH it isn’t enough. It’s not sustainable. I certainly can’t go on much longer and I’m sure a lot of people in these areas are the same so they will break the rules. Most people here aren’t advocating having a massive party. But humans need some social contact and will find it, it’s inevitable. I’m not sure we should fight against that so much as we should try to find a middle ground that’s not “fuck the rules” but neither is it “lock everyone up”.

You know, doesn't actually matter what we think is right or wrong....it's the law. It applies to everyone. It's not something to pick about and follow the parts you want to. If I went out and drive in my car after 8 double vodkas and sped down the local village roads at 60mph not 30mpm, and killed your child......I would have broken the law several times, be a criminal and absolutely deserve to be punished for that.
If you intentionally break these laws and mix with people where you shouldn't, provide false info when checking in someone and don't self isolate when you should and ultimately cause people to die....it is just the same. We don't have to like the law...and yes there are some daft ones.....but we should flow them. If people don't, then yes people like the op can and indeed should feel angry

YANBU. They are ignorant fuckwits. Anyone breaking the rules for their own selfish reasons is.

What I read constantly on here is people saying "it's my own risk to take". But no. No it fucking isn't. With this selfishness they are risking the lives of our most vulnerable - either directly through Covid or indirectly through overwhelm of the NHS. All so they can have a birthday down the pub, get both sets of grandparents round or a piss up with their friends. Ignorant and selfish.

There's nothing wrong about questioning rules which have been put in place in a less than democratic way. Certainly not in a situation like this one, where the rules in question are demonstrably reactive, poorly thought-through and inconsistent. I'd argue that it is quite healthy to do so.

Furthermore, when people do question rules, it does not automatically follow that they are going to rush out and break all of them as flagrantly as possible

Thanks @TheDailyCarbuncle. It must be really stressful for you writing all these messages but I’m grateful that you are saying exactly what I’d say if I didn’t want to wind myself up talking to hysterical, MSM manipulated....um.....people.

While I don't wish to party with large groups anytime or anwhere, I agree that restraint and personal moderation is going to be the key to getting through the pandemic. We all need to take as much pleasure from enjoying smaller, more controlled gatherings as much as massive explosions of exuberance.It doesn't have to be the size of Glastonbury to be fun, surely?

BikeTyson I am in Scotland, and in the middle of effing nowhere subject to both local and now national measures so fully understand. Other siblings have formed any possible bubbles with family. So I am finding it very hard. But it doesnt change the rational argument that this is the only option right now. My point would be that quite a lot of risk-taking by others got us to this sorry state, so am disinclined to either blame or indeed trust the politicians who now have to rein us all back in. I am just very grateful that I am not a front line worker surrounded by people who have been on 'essential' holidays abroad, pub piss ups and family birthday parties.

Jourdain11, are you seriously suggesting that this is politics rather than public health? I find it hard to believe than anyone could be stupid enough, given the evidence and the recorded death rates, to advance this idea. It's not ideology, it's the lives of real people, and the only imperative is that people everyone, including me and you behave sensibly to ensure our families enjoy their allotted lifespan.

"For every claim of 'rule breakers' being selfish, there is a counter claim of how selfish it is to expect so many people, especially young people, to sacrifice so much for a virus that is unlikely to harm them"

Exactly! @RainbowParadise very well said. All the sacrifices being made by the young and healthy are only to benefit other people. To call THEM in any way selfish is as laughable as it is outrageous.

@TheDailyCarbuncle I also agree with everything you say 👏

Why will following the rules make this go away quicker though as mentioned many times?

I'll repeat what I said upthread, this makes absolutely no sense:

"Stop doing social things that spread the virus and we will lift restrictions to let you do social things that spread the virus"

🙄 Nonsense.

@fewming

"For every claim of 'rule breakers' being selfish, there is a counter claim of how selfish it is to expect so many people, especially young people, to sacrifice so much for a virus that is unlikely to harm them"

Exactly! @RainbowParadise very well said. All the sacrifices being made by the young and healthy are only to benefit other people. To call THEM in any way selfish is as laughable as it is outrageous.

@TheDailyCarbuncle I also agree with everything you say 👏

👏 100%

Anger is an energy.

It pisses me off so much that so many people are wasting their energy on what their friends, neighbours, family, colleagues and random members of the public are doing or not doing.

The only way out of this to some sort of normality is through testing, contact tracing and isolation and we are failing on every one of those because this government is shit.

Testing is shit, contact tracing is shit, support to isolate is shit.

Please don't waste your energy on ordinary bods who don't have the power to change shit.

@secretllama

Why will following the rules make this go away quicker though as mentioned many times?

I'll repeat what I said upthread, this makes absolutely no sense:

"Stop doing social things that spread the virus and we will lift restrictions to let you do social things that spread the virus"

🙄 Nonsense.

I'll bite.

Stop doing high risk things that spread the virus and we will lift restrictions on hospitality etc in a controlled manner with stringent guidelines to let you have the sort of freedoms you are demanding are absolutely necessary and have lower risk, especially for all the young people who are 'sacrificing so much'

I will repeat what I said upthread too........what is your better alternative solution?

My point would be that quite a lot of risk-taking by others got us to this sorry state, so am disinclined to either blame or indeed trust the politicians who now have to rein us all back in.

I disagree that this is what’s got us back to this state. I blame the government, who squandered the time they were bought by the first lockdown and failed to put in place regular routine testing of high spread-risk groups whether symptomatic or not (eg hospital staff, students, teachers) or even a functioning test and trace system. We did our bit, flattened the curve and all that. They wasted the time our efforts bought them.

Labour would be even more about taking our human rights away

How so?

Don't forget Dom and his eye test.......the rot set in then.

@XingMing

Jourdain11, are you seriously suggesting that this is politics rather than public health? I find it hard to believe than anyone could be stupid enough, given the evidence and the recorded death rates, to advance this idea. It's not ideology, it's the lives of real people, and the only imperative is that people everyone, including me and you behave sensibly to ensure our families enjoy their allotted lifespan.

Of course it's politics and ideology, as well as being public health! The two things aren't mutually exclusive. You can call me stupid if you like, but it seems perfectly obvious to me that the two things can coexist.

A government passing laws without scrutiny is politics - and not very nice politics either. At the same time, there can be issues pertaining to public health which necessitate, validate, or at least excuse, this approach.

@TheDailyCarbuncle

While I can see your point of view, and do agree with much of what you say, what would you suggest we do differently to the current guidelines/rules?

I’m currently following them, mainly to try and slow the rate of increase to prevent excessive hospitalisations, therefore allowing essential non covid medical appointments/procedures to continue. These will be at risk in my area if current rates continue, meaning things like cancer treatment and surgery could be stopped again. Some have only just got back to normal service. Obviously we don’t want this to happen.

It appears many aren’t following the rules for various reasons, but it definitely appears cases are rising and crucially hospitalisations are rising, including itu/critical care.

So if we decide not to follow the rules, what do we do instead? And how do we manage the hospitalisations? Will it just be survival of the fittest?

I’m genuinely interested in what people’s views are on this, especially those who think we should just ignore the rules. Are you just hoping that it won’t be you who is badly affected?

@Wherrsmaclickypen sorry for "demanding" that God forbid I can see my parents in their house. Yes I do think it's absolutely necessary to have the right to visit your family and friends in their house.

But this is the so called high risk interaction thats restricted to me in Scotland. So by obeying the rule of not visiting my parents in their house , I'll soon be allowed to visit them in their house? Nah.

@Jourdain11, exactly. I question them, I abide by them. It is possible.

In Berlin at the moment there's a rule of five for all private gatherings. I don't think that's got anything to do with the Tories.

@BikeTyson

My point would be that quite a lot of risk-taking by others got us to this sorry state, so am disinclined to either blame or indeed trust the politicians who now have to rein us all back in.

I disagree that this is what’s got us back to this state. I blame the government, who squandered the time they were bought by the first lockdown and failed to put in place regular routine testing of high spread-risk groups whether symptomatic or not (eg hospital staff, students, teachers) or even a functioning test and trace system. We did our bit, flattened the curve and all that. They wasted the time our efforts bought them.

Totally agree that these are massive failures. I just dont get why the thinking is that we can, therefore, justify being so shit at minimising risk as they are and how that is a justification for ignoring current restrictions. I'd focus on exposing the contracts for friends scandals and voting them out.

I note that TheDailyCarbuncle despite their popular criticisms is 'sticking to the rules because they dont want to catch covid'.

It's so amazing how many people suddenly care about all the vulnerable people out there now. It would warm my heart if it was genuine.

Where were all the people doing everything in their power to support the vulnerable before covid? I see very little mention of the people who have had their mental health treatment stopped, or the people who have not had the medical treatment they needed.

You can console yourself with the fact that you are such a great unselfish human, but let's be clear, you care about a certain type of vulnerable person, and you will protect them as long as it doesn't put you out too much- but we all have our limits on how far we will go to protect others.

You are no less selfish than anyone else- you just think you are. Spend a day doing my job and see what this is doing to some really vulnerable people, it might make you change your mind on who the selfish people really are.. but no, as long as they don't die from covid it's all good.