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I'm so angry...

419 replies

MaryShelley1818 · 05/10/2020 14:22

We are in an area with local restrictions so high transmission rates in the North East of England.

Someone I know had her 40th at the weekend and photos on FB of her having a party in a pub, cake presents, her and kids, her parents, her sister who works at a local University in a very high position, and about 4-5 friends. No Social Distancing, drinking, cuddling, shots, photos.
How are people just carrying on as normal??!! How can you be so bloody thick as to post all the photos on FB. Am I missing something?? I'm furious.

We've followed every single rule but seems I'm in the minority and the longer people just do whatever they want for, the longer I'll have to go without seeing my friends and family.

OP posts:
userxx · 05/10/2020 22:29

@U2HasTheEdge 👏 👏 👏

RealityExistsInTheHumanMind · 05/10/2020 22:32

@randomer

Labour would be even more about taking our human rights away

How so?

because they know they will always be a 'one shot wonder' is my initial response.
However. Labour in principle is more about looking after those who can't look after themselves. Which in many cases is my view too. However, in the longer term, we need an economy that is working. Everytime labour loses to the conservatives they leave huge national debt. Conservative policy usually leaves the economy in a better state. Labour normally leaves the (less well off) individual in a better state. Politically I would prefer a middle ground - in this instance, I believe (backed up - or rather informed by high level epidemiologists) I think, what is happening, is dragging out the pain for little if any gain. We know young (under 50) people are at lower risk from Covid generally than they are from flu (this particularly applies to children).

When this magic vaccine arrives it will not be offered to this group because the (albeit low) risk from the vaccine will be greater than that of the virus. So what appears to be a more protective approach is just dragging the misery out. Our young will not get the vaccine for at least a couple of years - they will get the virus, they may or may not feel rough for a few days - so why not now rather than next year. (It may be more serious for a few but far less than from flu)

secretllama · 05/10/2020 22:33

@U2HasTheEdge

👏👏

Ellsbells12 · 05/10/2020 22:33

@GregariousMountains

Nobody is going back to how they used to live, its not going to happen. War, plague and technological advancement are always the things that have fundamentally changed the way lives are lived. You might not like it but friends and extended family are going to be more of a virtual part of life now. Life has changed for good -what you consider normal human things are no longer normal human things. It sucks but you will get used to it.
What a load of shit the human race would die out
Wherrsmaclickypen · 05/10/2020 22:52

U2HasTheEdge

I understand from your post you think the focus and measures on covid suppression are too high a price to pay.

What would you do differently? I think thats what many of us are asking and struggling with. I think we are facing some horrible choices but it certainly makes no sense if policies are causing more deaths elsewhere.

I guess many fit /younger people are also weary with this and would rather take their chances with covid and 'move on'. I would too but my husband and close family are all high risk and shielded. One is also very ill and vulnerable as a direct consequence of the diverted focus on covid. In this situation I am not sure what 'selfish' or 'unselfish' looks like but rather assume that doing my best to not get or spread covid is sensible.

Surely not overwhelming health services is the best way to protect other services and the otherwise vulnerable? Genuinely interested to understand what you are saying.

Watermelon999 · 06/10/2020 07:09

@Wherrsmaclickypen

I agree, I posted something very similar on another thread yesterday.

It’s not enough to say you don’t believe in the guidelines, or they’re too harsh etc without giving an alternative suggestion as to how to manage.

As hospitals are starting to become busier again with covid patients, how do we manage this without having to cancel other essential medical and surgical treatments like last time, as that would be so depressing as we’ve only just restarted many of them and are working on the backlogs.

Watermelon999 · 06/10/2020 07:10

Actually just realised it was this thread I posted on 🤣

Wherrsmaclickypen · 06/10/2020 08:03

Morning watermelon999 😬 Yes and I agree with your original post. I've seen too many (quite angry) posts that criticise but don't suggest anything better.

Also, this is the first "plague" we have experienced in the days of social media and I worry about the influence some 'rebellious' posts have on nudging others to bend or ignore rules. Especially goady ones that declare others to be stupid sheep etc. Feels pretty irresponsible to me. Politely disagreeing with the Op is one thing, making them and everyone that is complying feel foolish for doing so, or applauding such sentiments, is quite another.

Iminaglasscaseofemotion · 06/10/2020 08:21

@GregariousMountains

Nobody is going back to how they used to live, its not going to happen. War, plague and technological advancement are always the things that have fundamentally changed the way lives are lived. You might not like it but friends and extended family are going to be more of a virtual part of life now. Life has changed for good -what you consider normal human things are no longer normal human things. It sucks but you will get used to it.
Don't be so ridiculous. Of course people will eventually go back to normal. Only those who want to stay distanced from people will keep ot up. What a load of dramatic crap.
cologne4711 · 06/10/2020 08:51

I don't think the rule of 6 is unreasonable, I don't think mask-wearing indoors is unreasonable and I don't think the pub curfew is unreasonable (although I might have gone about trying to stop people getting drunk and hugging each other in a different way - eg booked time slots at pub tables, although that doesn't stop someone going to another pub for another two hour's drinking).

However, I can't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to meet small groups outside, even in hotspot areas, and the travel restrictions are stupid too. The virus doesn't get you when you magically drive over a county border or more than 5 miles from your home.

Also, in England you've been able to run with friends in small groups since the beginning of July. As far as I am aware, none of my friends or members of my club who I know less well, have caught covid from running outside in a group (or at all, come to that). Yet you can only run with one other household in Scotland. There is no sense in that, and the evidence from England shows it doesn't spread that way.

Also stopping people in care homes going out or having visitors, even outside, is cruel and unnecessary. They are homes, not prisons. Ditto university halls of residence.

The rules have to make sense, and a lot of them don't.

annabel85 · 06/10/2020 08:56

@BikeTyson

So I think it is counter intuitive to argue that it is justifiable to 'fuck the new normal' and socially gather when that is almost guaranteed to prolong the most severe lockdown restrictions and economic pain.

I don’t disagree with most of what you say. But for me, where I live, the “new normal” is being unable to legally meet anyone outside my household. Much as I adore DD and DH it isn’t enough. It’s not sustainable. I certainly can’t go on much longer and I’m sure a lot of people in these areas are the same so they will break the rules. Most people here aren’t advocating having a massive party. But humans need some social contact and will find it, it’s inevitable. I’m not sure we should fight against that so much as we should try to find a middle ground that’s not “fuck the rules” but neither is it “lock everyone up”.

I know it's not the same as physical contact, but technology has improved a lot to enable people to meet via video link and be in contact 24 hours a day via various social media. You can go to the pub, you can go to a restaurant, you can go to shops.

We're not being held in solitary confinement. We live in an extroverts world normally and they need to adapt for a bit.

MadameBlobby · 06/10/2020 09:28

@cologne4711

I don't think the rule of 6 is unreasonable, I don't think mask-wearing indoors is unreasonable and I don't think the pub curfew is unreasonable (although I might have gone about trying to stop people getting drunk and hugging each other in a different way - eg booked time slots at pub tables, although that doesn't stop someone going to another pub for another two hour's drinking).

However, I can't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to meet small groups outside, even in hotspot areas, and the travel restrictions are stupid too. The virus doesn't get you when you magically drive over a county border or more than 5 miles from your home.

Also, in England you've been able to run with friends in small groups since the beginning of July. As far as I am aware, none of my friends or members of my club who I know less well, have caught covid from running outside in a group (or at all, come to that). Yet you can only run with one other household in Scotland. There is no sense in that, and the evidence from England shows it doesn't spread that way.

Also stopping people in care homes going out or having visitors, even outside, is cruel and unnecessary. They are homes, not prisons. Ditto university halls of residence.

The rules have to make sense, and a lot of them don't.

I agree Cologne. Sadly so many people seem to think we should just have rules for the sake of it. We have seen it since March, with people going on about our “half arsed” lockdown which was nothing of the kind. Some people think harsher measures must automatically be better without applying any form of critical thinking
BikeTyson · 06/10/2020 09:38

You can go to the pub, you can go to a restaurant, you can go to shops.

But what’s the point in doing any of those things now? I don’t want to go to the fucking pub. I’d swap my permission to go to the pub for the permission to go to a friend or family member’s home in a heartbeat.

I’m an introvert through and through. I’m still struggling, hugely, for the first time in my life and zoom is NOT a substitute for a hug no matter how much people who are happy locked away want to pretend it is. It’s because I’m an introvert that I don’t want to hang around with strangers in a pub, I want to see a friend for a cup of tea.

LangClegsInSpace · 06/10/2020 10:38

Wherrsmaclickypen - What would you do differently? I think thats what many of us are asking and struggling with.

Watermelon999 - It’s not enough to say you don’t believe in the guidelines, or they’re too harsh etc without giving an alternative suggestion as to how to manage.

Well I've been posting the same suggestions til I'm blue in the face since early march but whenever I do so, it's like my posts are strangely invisible. I'll have another go:

Sort out testing, sort out contact tracing, support people to effectively self isolate. Chase the fucker down and contain it.

Lockdown measures and restrictions are for when we've fucked that up. If we don't know where the virus is we have to keep everyone away from everyone else. That's where we are now.

Lockdown measures are not a solution in themselves, they just buy a bit of time. We have to use that time to build up testing and contact tracing, and to put in place the things people need to self isolate. If we don't do that we're back to square one. Neither people nor the economy can withstand repeated lockdowns with no progress and no end in sight.

ChodeOfChodeBall · 06/10/2020 10:39

@randomer

Don't forget Dom and his eye test.......the rot set in then.
It was all a load of bollocks long before Dom's eye-test.
amicissimma · 06/10/2020 10:46

@TheKeatingFive

When are we released from the idea that we must serve this one illness at the expense of everything else?

Who the fuck knows.

But when the economic effects start being felt more widely, there will be a distinct change of tune, no doubt.

I think the tide is gradually turning.

I can't imagine so many posts expressing this few, compared to those expressing the opposing one, on a thread a few months ago.

shouldisay · 06/10/2020 11:20

@TheDailyCarbuncle

People have been handed the responsibility of protecting people from a virus that they may or may not have. They have been told that if they, without any malice or intention, infect another person while going about their everyday life they are personally responsible for that. And in order to prevent it from happening, they have to deny themselves a job, a social life, the potential to travel and meet new people.

Where does that responsibility end? When does it end? When does my being a human, one that can get sick and can pass on illness, stop being a problem? Perhaps everyone should isolate indefinitely to prevent the many millions of other deaths from infection that happen every year? Why don't we care about those deaths? Why don't they count? Why was it ok for me to pass on flu last year and potentially kill someone, but not ok for me to pass on covid this year?

Beyond actual actions I take to hurt you, I am not responsible for your health and you are not responsible for mine. Living means risk, and some of that risk is getting ill. I will not stop living my life to prevent a risk that I can't help posing as human being. I will NOT.

This is the best thing I have read for a long time and articulates exactly what o feel but have never been able to put into words.

I will wear a mask and distance etc but will I fuck as like, not see my family or friends. Because of this fixation on one thing that leaves all else to the kerb, my livelihood has gone down the drain and I don't ever see it coming back. My business went from successful to barely clinging on overnight and it will go under. I have about 2 months worth of money left to keep it afloat. I refuse to lose the job and business me and DH worked hard on, be ruined financially AND stop seeing friends and family. Just. Isn't. Happening. And I don't give two shits what anyone else thinks

annabel85 · 06/10/2020 11:22

@BikeTyson

You can go to the pub, you can go to a restaurant, you can go to shops.

But what’s the point in doing any of those things now? I don’t want to go to the fucking pub. I’d swap my permission to go to the pub for the permission to go to a friend or family member’s home in a heartbeat.

I’m an introvert through and through. I’m still struggling, hugely, for the first time in my life and zoom is NOT a substitute for a hug no matter how much people who are happy locked away want to pretend it is. It’s because I’m an introvert that I don’t want to hang around with strangers in a pub, I want to see a friend for a cup of tea.

Yeah, I agree with that. To be fair, I was factoring in the rule of 6 which allows you to be around a few more of those closest to you than just the couple of people you might live with. The OP story completely ignores that rule.
Wherrsmaclickypen · 06/10/2020 12:23

@LangClegsInSpace

Wherrsmaclickypen - What would you do differently? I think thats what many of us are asking and struggling with.

Watermelon999 - It’s not enough to say you don’t believe in the guidelines, or they’re too harsh etc without giving an alternative suggestion as to how to manage.

Well I've been posting the same suggestions til I'm blue in the face since early march but whenever I do so, it's like my posts are strangely invisible. I'll have another go:

Sort out testing, sort out contact tracing, support people to effectively self isolate. Chase the fucker down and contain it.

Lockdown measures and restrictions are for when we've fucked that up. If we don't know where the virus is we have to keep everyone away from everyone else. That's where we are now.

Lockdown measures are not a solution in themselves, they just buy a bit of time. We have to use that time to build up testing and contact tracing, and to put in place the things people need to self isolate. If we don't do that we're back to square one. Neither people nor the economy can withstand repeated lockdowns with no progress and no end in sight.

Apologies LangClegs, hadnt seen your post before. Agree with your assessment and suspect this is why there is such a degree of desperation within government, if testing and tracing had been implemented effectively, that would have a far bigger impact and we wouldnt be where we are now.
I suppose the challenge is that we can and should be angry, but increased non-compliance will simply make things worse. Politicians will be well aware that they are losing goodwill as already evidenced by this thread. TheDailyCarbuncle's position as reprised above, is an eloquent one. "I will not stop living my life to prevent a risk that I cant help posing as a human being. I will NOT'. But the original ask was not open-ended, it was hoped to, as you say, buy time. Without popular support, it is clear that further lockdowns will be far less effective and unsustainable. Then it will indeed be every man for themselves attempting to 'lead their life'. I think many people are scared of this survival of the fittest prospect and would have been up in arms if it had been the governments strategy.
TheDailyCarbuncle · 06/10/2020 12:35

[quote Watermelon999]@TheDailyCarbuncle

While I can see your point of view, and do agree with much of what you say, what would you suggest we do differently to the current guidelines/rules?

I’m currently following them, mainly to try and slow the rate of increase to prevent excessive hospitalisations, therefore allowing essential non covid medical appointments/procedures to continue. These will be at risk in my area if current rates continue, meaning things like cancer treatment and surgery could be stopped again. Some have only just got back to normal service. Obviously we don’t want this to happen.

It appears many aren’t following the rules for various reasons, but it definitely appears cases are rising and crucially hospitalisations are rising, including itu/critical care.

So if we decide not to follow the rules, what do we do instead? And how do we manage the hospitalisations? Will it just be survival of the fittest?

I’m genuinely interested in what people’s views are on this, especially those who think we should just ignore the rules. Are you just hoping that it won’t be you who is badly affected?[/quote]
An ideal alternative would be to have a healthcare system and a disaster plan that has actual capacity to deal with situations like this. It really surprises me that people aren't in a rage about the fact that they have to lose their livelihoods and their contact with other people to 'protect' the NHS, a service that is supposed to be there to protect them. What if there had been a nuclear meltdown? Or a war? Would people accept that there's no medical care and just die quietly? Expecting there to be a contingency, for government to say 'there's a health threat, but we can deal with it,' isn't actually beyond reasonable.

However, as we don't seem to have any capacity to deal with a large-scale threat, the next thing would be to look properly at the actual data and look critically at the actual benefit (or otherwise) of 'protecting the NHS.' It's beyond bonkers to protect the NHS by making people sicker and more depressed, by tanking the economy such that you reduce revenue and increase poverty and the resulting effects of job losses.

The virus, unfortunately, exists. Pretending that you can somehow 'beat' it and that therefore people must suffer is nuts. Having a situation with thousands of job losses, where children have been kept at home for months with little to no outside contact, where whole industries are collapsing, is not a solution. It's political pandering from politicians who would rather tank the economy and destroy people's lives than say 'there is a hard limit to what we can do in this situation.' I am genuinely shocked that people not only accept being told they can't see their own families, that they must leave elderly people isolated, lonely and struggling, they demand it. Such is the level of tunnel-vision and lack of understanding about what you can really do in this situation.

As for the whole world falling apart if the virus 'rips' through the population - 11 million people die every year from the infections that 'rip' through every population everywhere. Yet if you asked the entirety of mumsnet most people won't know anyone who's died from infection, they won't even be aware it's a problem. The vast, vast majority (as in close to 100%) of people who have covid recover. This is not a major existential threat and acting like it is, to the extent that you amplify the effect of a virus beyond all measuring by artificially introducing suffering and chaos via restrictions and lockdowns, is so far from a solution, so the opposite of a positive response, it really baffles me how this is not obvious to people.

TheDailyCarbuncle · 06/10/2020 12:41

To be clear, I don't advocate going entirely back to normal, with no protective measures at all - it makes sense to encourage handwashing, a sensible level of distancing, restrictions on very large gatherings etc. But stopping people from seeing their own families is not acceptable. Locking people in care homes with no contact from loved ones is abuse. Allowing whole industries to die on their feet, with no effort made to save them or to provide any sort of notion of when they can get back going is unforgivable. That's before you get to the part where the Tory fuckers don't follow any of the rules themselves.

Oodlesofnoodles20 · 06/10/2020 12:44

Exactly @TheDailyCarbuncle but that would mean investing in a system that they have been trying to streamline and sell off for years. They would rather see people locked down than put a penny more into the NHS. Even the nightingale hospitals were temporary, why not build something more permanent as they knew this virus wasn’t going anywhere anytime soon.
I love Captain Tom, and the money he raised was phenomenal but the NHS isn’t a charity and it shouldn’t be treated like one. It’s a service we pay for and the government has been dipping into the pot for years.

Wherrsmaclickypen · 06/10/2020 15:26

TheDailyCarbuncle

Yes fair point that other preventable infectious diseases and sepsis continue to kill especially in countries where there is limited access to effective vaccines and healthcare. But are we suggesting the WHO miscalled this as a case apart, pandemic requiring a global response? By and large individual countries are basing their strategies on global learning and WHO guidance.

It looks like WHO are now reporting widespread apathy and compliance fatigue across Europe which may come as no surprise and will no doubt preclude any government from attempting further unpalatable lockdown restrictions as they will just be futile and political suicide. Certainly sounds like Nicola is baulking.

So we are going to be behaving like it's 'pandemic lite' soon anyway. We are indeed back to square 1, but with more division, less money and less goodwill. Perhaps that is why there is anger on both sides of the compliance debate.

TheDailyCarbuncle · 06/10/2020 16:06

@Wherrsmaclickypen

TheDailyCarbuncle

Yes fair point that other preventable infectious diseases and sepsis continue to kill especially in countries where there is limited access to effective vaccines and healthcare. But are we suggesting the WHO miscalled this as a case apart, pandemic requiring a global response? By and large individual countries are basing their strategies on global learning and WHO guidance.

It looks like WHO are now reporting widespread apathy and compliance fatigue across Europe which may come as no surprise and will no doubt preclude any government from attempting further unpalatable lockdown restrictions as they will just be futile and political suicide. Certainly sounds like Nicola is baulking.

So we are going to be behaving like it's 'pandemic lite' soon anyway. We are indeed back to square 1, but with more division, less money and less goodwill. Perhaps that is why there is anger on both sides of the compliance debate.

What I want to know is, what did the WHO (or anyone who is pro-lockdown/restrictions) want to achieve? The messaging has been incredibly unclear, ranging from 'covid is deadly, you must not get it' (totally impossible) to 'protect the healthcare systems' (I mean WTF, isn't that the wrong way around?). I think scientists have been acting in good faith, looking at how covid spreads and the genuine danger that exists for older people and reacting as scientists do - control variable x to manage variable y - nice and simple - prevent contact, control transmission. Except that this is humans we're dealing with, not bacteria in a petri dish and it is a judgement call as to whether controlling one variable at the expense of many hundreds of other variables is actually beneficial on the whole.

A virus will kill who it kills (I don't mean that callously, it's just a fact). Lockdowns and restrictions are a choice. If that choice kills a person, what are you achieving? What's the benefit of saving a person from a virus while killing someone else with despair and poverty? IMO there is none. Not only that but 'saving' a person from a virus that is nearly everywhere in the world, with millions infected, is a nonsense. How long can you 'save' them for? When do you admit defeat? When do you accept that even if you prevent them getting it now, they may get it next year or the year after. What price has to be paid, in lives, in potential, for that delay?

It has truly amazed me the extent to which people have so entirely and completely lost perspective on this. Although I shouldn't be amazed because there are so many examples throughout history where humans have acted self-destructively out of fear only to look back at a later stage and say 'what were we thinking?' We don't learn. At all.

LangClegsInSpace · 06/10/2020 17:10

WHO's messaging has been incredibly clear from the start:

Find, test, isolate and care for every case, trace and quarantine every contact.

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