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I'm so angry...

419 replies

MaryShelley1818 · 05/10/2020 14:22

We are in an area with local restrictions so high transmission rates in the North East of England.

Someone I know had her 40th at the weekend and photos on FB of her having a party in a pub, cake presents, her and kids, her parents, her sister who works at a local University in a very high position, and about 4-5 friends. No Social Distancing, drinking, cuddling, shots, photos.
How are people just carrying on as normal??!! How can you be so bloody thick as to post all the photos on FB. Am I missing something?? I'm furious.

We've followed every single rule but seems I'm in the minority and the longer people just do whatever they want for, the longer I'll have to go without seeing my friends and family.

OP posts:
Wherrsmaclickypen · 07/10/2020 14:38

NRatched
'am not a sciency person by any stretch'

I have realised I thought for some reason you were a nurse (assuming it mentioned in an earlier post), but that it has just now dawned on me it was just by association from your username 😬

NRatched · 07/10/2020 15:03

Haha, I wish I had stuck in to do that sort of thing out of school, I really do. I was pissed off with education and wanred to earn quickly instead so while friends went off to train for various jobs, I went into a (very well paid for the time) dead end job, and then kept going into dead end jobs for a while.

My sister is a nurse. This could also maybe be why you have associated me, along with the username? Grin

Wherrsmaclickypen · 07/10/2020 15:26

This is the evidence report referenced by the First Minister - lots on compliance Scientific and compliance data

TheDailyCarbuncle · 07/10/2020 15:40

@Wherrsmaclickypen

A question for everyone

Its February 2020.

Imagine the government announces after careful consideration that they are not going to lockdown. Contrary to other countries and WHO advice, they will pursue a herd immunity strategy, because they cannot risk the economy. They will pump money into the NHS and vaccine development, but warn that the NHS will inevitably become overwhelmed and that some people will die. Yes its tough. Those at highest risk should really stay in and shield. Everyone else should protect yourself best you can with masks, hand sanitisers and social distancing but we are not going to curb your freedom to work, travel, play or congregate (with maybe the exception of very large gatherings).

For everyone who is so fervently supporting TheDailyCarbuncle's articulate position, you do realise that this is effectively her position? I ask only because there was so much uproar at letting nature take its course back in the day, so clearly opinions are changing.

TheDailyCarbuncle is not alone. Some scientists are now also supporting this approach news.sky.com/story/scientists-and-politicians-split-over-how-to-tackle-rising-covid-infections-as-northern-leaders-say-restrictions-are-not-working-12096597

(Back in March, to say this possible 'survival of the fittest' was not a popular option with the electorate is an understatement, and scientists did not support e.g.www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-uk-scientists-letter-government-plan-herd-immunity-a9402661.html)

We know governments cannot effectively tighten restrictions now as there will not be the required compliance (if this thread is anything to go by). So a nation that decried a herd immunity strategy as government policy is going to get it anyway.

Cant help thinking we have come this far with one strategy, to be forced into a damaging volte face and we will end up with the worst of all worlds. Am I wrong?

You ask a really good question.

At the very beginning when there was so much uncertainty a brief lockdown would have made sense - take a short pause, assess the situation and LOOK AT THE DATA. Sorry for shouting that one but seriously, I am shit sick of people still going on about Imperial model scenarios as if they are fact. The Imperial model was a guess, pure and simple. It had to be a guess because nothing was known. By April it was clear the Imperial model wasn't anywhere near accurate - not surprising, given the circumstances - but then nothing was done to correct it, nothing was done to say 'this is wrong and these are the true facts of the situation.'

For one thing, no one seemed to address the fact that by the time covid was noticed here in the UK, it had spread to practically the entire world without anyone noticing until China pointed it out. A 'deadly' illness that spread literally everywhere, without anyone saying 'hang on, what's this deadly illness we're seeing?' Covid was spreading for at least three months, uncontrolled, over winter, without anyone spotting it. It was only when China said it existed that everyone suddenly said 'oh my god we're all going to die' despite the fact that we hadn't all died in the previous three months, but hey ho.

So we locked down, fine. But then the whole thing morphed in a really bizarre way into the idea that death was on every corner, leaving your house was unforgivable madness and it was not only necessary but desirable to keep children at home and deny them education from March to September. What was anyone actually thinking?? Where was the balance of harms? Where was the weighing of consequences?

@Wherrsmaclickypen you said 'Cant help thinking we have come this far with one strategy, to be forced into a damaging volte face and we will end up with the worst of all worlds. Am I wrong?'

You're not wrong. We've locked down for months, killing vulnerable people, destroying businesses, denying children education, only to end up no better off than we were in March. Because all that lockdown does is delay things and we've now, stupidly, delayed illnesses till the fucking winter. I mean, how unbelievably stupid is that? In April you might have got covid, with whatever consequences that entailed for you. Now, you might get covid and also be unemployed, with no access to family support and the threat of further restrictions looming over you in a country with a completely fucked economy with no greater access to healthcare than before. Essentially, not square one, square one + a massive heap of other problems in case square one wasn't bad enough already. Great result, really positive, really effective.

People need to believe lockdown is necessary because otherwise they'd have to face the fact that the months of difficulty they went through, the untold damage done was for nothing. There is a desperate need to cling to it and even to insist on it because otherwise you'd have to admit it was all a bit pointless and that's far harder to take.

There will be endless endless hand wringing articles about how we got it wrong and how we tried to 'beat' an illness in a way that makes no sense. This is all totally predictable and it annoys me I have to live through it, I have to experience humans getting things wrong on a massive scale, as they have done so many times in the past. We do not learn.

TheKeatingFive · 07/10/2020 15:53

Daily I'm not sure if you've come across it, but this article is interesting about why clawing back from the 'hard lockdown' position became culturally and politically difficult.

I wouldn't say I agree with all of it by any means, but there are some good points raised for sure, particularly points 2 and 4.

hectordrummond.com/2020/08/23/thaddeus-michaels-why-did-the-whole-world-lose-its-nerve/

TheDailyCarbuncle · 07/10/2020 16:01

I agree entirely with that article @TheKeatingFive, it encapsulates what I think very very well. Thanks for posting it, it makes me feel less like a lone voice!

I'm quoting from the last part here, as it captures a lot of what I think:

^Covid-19 hysteria is an emotional, identity-driven position masquerading as a set of facts.

It has spread so widely, though, that there are few control cases available for comparison, besides Sweden.

Sweden is a useful example for lockdown sceptics, but it is too easy for pro-lockdown voices to dismiss Sweden as an outlier country that anyway experienced a higher death toll than neighbouring countries.

On individual questions like school closures, we are starting to see some emerging evidence that the hysterics were wrong. Perhaps similar evidence will emerge soon on measures like track and trace, mask wearing, and so on.

Many of the ‘Covid Hero’ countries like New Zealand will see that status diminish as they find themselves vulnerable to imported outbreaks. That may help to recalibrate the debate.

Sadly, though, I fear it will only be the rampant social, economic and psychological destruction we inflict on the world’s youth that will eventually up-end the mainstream consensus.^

I especially agree with the last part. There are so many pro-lockdown people who are going to get a massive shock when lockdown consequences start biting them and their children on the arse. I believe they support lockdown in good faith and do so because they have been made victims of their own fear. It's essentially a case of someone walking backwards off a cliff, away from a 'monster' when that monster turns out to be shadows and myths.

ILookAtTheFloor · 07/10/2020 16:06

I'm so heartened to see sceptic voices on MN now. I was never very anxious about it all and was very unhappy with the school closures but largely accepted the lockdown. Now I've completely changed my view and I don't think I'm alone. And I'm no Brexiteer or right winger- in my circle my most lefty acquaintances are the most lockdown zealots for sure but I think sceptic view should transcend the political spectrum.

TheDailyCarbuncle · 07/10/2020 16:09

Something that really irritated me recently was a friend complaining about the creative industries being in danger of collapse. This same friend barely leaves the house despite not having any health issues. What the actual fuck does he expect?? If people like him won't leave their houses because of the fear of one virus then the creative industries are entirely and comprehensively fucked. Complaining about it is entirely pointless - the solution is to realise that killing whole industries and making thousands jobless is not a solution to any fucking thing, ever. Jesus it annoys me.

Watermelon999 · 07/10/2020 16:10

@Wherrsmaclickypen

A question for everyone

Its February 2020.

Imagine the government announces after careful consideration that they are not going to lockdown. Contrary to other countries and WHO advice, they will pursue a herd immunity strategy, because they cannot risk the economy. They will pump money into the NHS and vaccine development, but warn that the NHS will inevitably become overwhelmed and that some people will die. Yes its tough. Those at highest risk should really stay in and shield. Everyone else should protect yourself best you can with masks, hand sanitisers and social distancing but we are not going to curb your freedom to work, travel, play or congregate (with maybe the exception of very large gatherings).

For everyone who is so fervently supporting TheDailyCarbuncle's articulate position, you do realise that this is effectively her position? I ask only because there was so much uproar at letting nature take its course back in the day, so clearly opinions are changing.

TheDailyCarbuncle is not alone. Some scientists are now also supporting this approach news.sky.com/story/scientists-and-politicians-split-over-how-to-tackle-rising-covid-infections-as-northern-leaders-say-restrictions-are-not-working-12096597

(Back in March, to say this possible 'survival of the fittest' was not a popular option with the electorate is an understatement, and scientists did not support e.g.www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-uk-scientists-letter-government-plan-herd-immunity-a9402661.html)

We know governments cannot effectively tighten restrictions now as there will not be the required compliance (if this thread is anything to go by). So a nation that decried a herd immunity strategy as government policy is going to get it anyway.

Cant help thinking we have come this far with one strategy, to be forced into a damaging volte face and we will end up with the worst of all worlds. Am I wrong?

Can’t help feeling that the students were the unwitting volunteers for the latest round of enforced herd immunity.

As nhs workers (and presumably care home workers), we felt like were were the first guinea pigs. I’m sure teachers probably feel the same too.

NRatched · 07/10/2020 16:13

Reading that one now, to here and had to comment

In the States, anything Trump said about coronavirus was instinctively added to the list of wrongthink by his political opponents, even when he accidentally said sensible things.

accidentally said sensible things

is a very good description Grin But this part, is undeniably true, and not just his political opponents in the states either, many of the general public seemingly. I remember a while back pondering the rise in infection numbers that were not backed up by the expected rise in hospital admissions (not just here). I maybe stupidly given the nature of much social media these days, posted on facebook that IMO this is most likely to be because more people are being tested, so of course, more positives are found, and that it was indeed a GOOD thing for everyone if there is more infections but less serious illeness in stats, as it means generally speaking, that the illness is potentially less deadly than previously thought, and that we just weren't testing so much beforehand so many less serious cases were missed. I have in the past expressed thoughts that have gained a little pushback, NOTHING like that though. I was immediately (despite many of these these people knowing me for years and knowing my general 'political leanings' and such too) claimed to be a trump supporter lots of stuff about trump actually and I have ever in any way shown I have an inkling of support for the man. Far right. Covid denier. And so on. It baffled me as it did not seem like I had said anything remotely offensive or nonsensical. I am slightly ashamed to admit that after many insulting replies, none of which actually addressed what I had said, I deleted the post instead of dealing with more of that. My sister then quietly informed me that what I had said had similarities to something Trump had said a few weeks/months earlier. That was it. Similarities.

I don't usually take offense when someone suggests I am 'right wing' for a view that does not 100% match the accepted version that many lefties hold. I do not think right wing is an insult, and think there is a lot more crossover in views between most 'left/right' peple than most would care to admit in a lot of cases. But far right and such I take huge offense at. Especially when I posted nothing even that could in any world actually be categorised at this.
The ferocity really surprised me.

Wherrsmaclickypen · 07/10/2020 16:57

We could also add/argue that first lockdown was simply justifiable as it bought the government and agencies precious time to be prepared efficiently execute PPE procurement, testing and tracking and mobilisation of resources - time that has been rather badly squandered but would have reaped dividends if achieved more successfully.

It also gave global scientists more time to amass evidence-based data and it is at least good and clear that risk-assessment and advice is changing as a result.

Official reports are always as interesting for what they leave out. The Scottish report above says little about mortality rates other than they remain currently very low...but are starting to increase. But the report is overweight on compliance census/survey data, with the clear message that this implies.

The 'number of cases' headline drama perversely is actually 'good news' if it is shown that many, many people are catching the virus but only a relatively small percentage are requiring hospitalisation (burden on healthcare) and even less die ( preventable death responsibility). There is no breakdown on age/health/BAME variables but last I saw it was still over 75s and care home settings as the main cluster.

But right now we are back to measures almost exclusively necessary to 'protect the NHS'.

I dont think it is terribly helpful to talk about hard sides - lockdown (aka government rules and guidelines) supporters and sceptics. I think it is reasonable to use critical thinking to posit what seems sensible to do assuming the vast majority of us are prepared to be good citizens and occupy the pragmatic middle ground between covid deniers and blind faith supporters. But for that (informed opinion) we need more transparency, and accuracy of data. The ratio of infections to hospitalisations to mortality is fairly critical in any justification of restrictions.

It is absolutely fine for governments to say this is what we knew then and this is what we know now and I think some critical thinking has been applied to the changes announced today - given the clear link between transmission and home and hospitality settings. Whether we agree with strategy to reduce transmission per se or not, its a fair cop that non-compliance is hampering that goal. Not sure how the public will respond to that pointy finger.

Wherrsmaclickypen · 07/10/2020 17:00

ahahaha NRatched I hadnt seen your post but just said the exactly same thing re infection versus mortality. There you go. Kill us now.🤣

Wherrsmaclickypen · 07/10/2020 17:10

ahahahaha. No hard data, merely anecdotal, but based on my local fb groups chatter, I would say it is safe to say that the alcohol restrictions are not going down terribly well .

Its going to be like an endless screening of Whisky Galore round here.😬

Watermelon999 · 07/10/2020 17:30

@TheDailyCarbuncle

“People have not been allowed to care for vulnerable relatives in care homes - some people in care homes have barely seen a loved one for months and months, 'for their own good.' Research has shown that over lockdown a significant proportion of care home residents died, not from covid, but from the effects of isolation and despair. Many simply stopped drinking and died of dehydration. How is that a positive outcome? That's a genuine, honest-to-god question. How is it beneficial to prevent a person having human contact 'for their own good' resulting in that person's death? How? I am so angry asking that question I can't tell you.

'Protecting the vulnerable' means focusing on the politically hot issue, protecting politician's reputations. It doesn't mean actually protecting vulnerable people, because if it did 'vulnerable' would include care home residents who need family contact to continue living, people who need jobs to be able to eat, people with mental health issues who need face to face treatment to avoid deteriorating, and the many many other people who are vulnerable to abuse and despair made worse by lockdown.

“If your 'vulnerable' only includes one group of people, and the needs of those people are prioritised to the extent that it actually causes the death of other vulnerable people then you have to really ask do you actually care about vulnerable people? Or are do you have fatal tunnel-vision where fear has made you focus on one thing?”

Of course it’s difficult to argue against any of these points because they are completely true.

And the trouble is, whichever way the government had chosen to handle things, the net result would be that people would suffer. Usually the ones who are already disadvantaged in some way.

You do remind me a little of a member of a political party that is not in power, speaking with passion about looking after the disadvantaged, and of all the things that should be done to improve society and make a difference. Great ideas, which would be fantastic but no explanation as to how to make them happen or available funding.

I do appreciate that you are looking at the wider picture though which our leaders should be doing, and that you speak with conviction, which many of those in charge do not.

TheKeatingFive · 07/10/2020 17:37

I especially agree with the last part. There are so many pro-lockdown people who are going to get a massive shock when lockdown consequences start biting them and their children on the arse.

Absolutely. I thought the point about data in that article was extremely well made. Here we all are, obsessing over Covid data, and yet the equivalent data around the implications of lockdown just isn't to be seen - anywhere.

So we have classic availability bias, because all anyone ever sees is Covid, Covid, Covid. Naturally we conclude its the only thing of any consequence in the world.

There was a thread on here a few weeks ago in relation to Rishi's points about the impact on public spending/wages/benefits. Everyone was up in arms at the idea that public spending would have to be cut. I could hardly believe it hadn't occurred to so many people that this is the inevitable consequence of shutting down the entire country. It's so flipping obvious.

It's a shame that the debate has become so entrenched, that you can't even have a conversation, that all anyone seems to want to do is shut down the opposing side. We're all so invested in being 'right' unfortunately. We need to be a lot smarter about all this.

And whatever anyone says about Sweden, I am immensely grateful to them for striking out and going another way, not least because it means we have a comparison point to lockdown. We can learn a lot from them. Just as we can also learn a lot from the Asian countries that did a much better job at containment.

AgentCooper · 07/10/2020 23:28

The notion of protecting the vulnerable just feels like it’s lost a lot of weight for me now. FIL is in hospital, he’s 85 and has bowel problems and is low in potassium. This is his second admission in three weeks. He is a confused, agitated old man who is desperate to get home and isn’t allowed visitors. He’s never owned a mobile phone so if he wants to talk to any of his children or his wife he needs to get help from an auxiliary to use the hospital phone system. SIL (his daughter) works at the same hospital so she was popping in to see him, fully PPEd up and keeping her distance, just trying to keep her dad calm. She has now been stopped from doing this. DH has been on the phone to the nurse on duty every night to ask how his dad is doing and she’s basically been tutting about his sister being allowed access, saying she can’t tell him his dad’s blood results, not being helpful or sympathetic at all.

FIL really is vulnerable and I don’t see how this is helping him.

TheKeatingFive · 07/10/2020 23:35

Well we’re only protecting the vulnerable from Covid. If you’re vulnerable in any other way you're getting thrown under the bus as far as I can see.

AgentCooper · 07/10/2020 23:47

@TheKeatingFive

Well we’re only protecting the vulnerable from Covid. If you’re vulnerable in any other way you're getting thrown under the bus as far as I can see.
@TheKeatingFive indeed. This hierarchy of vulnerability is brutal. I wonder how people can be ok with it. The cynical side of me says obviously everyday, non Covid-specific vulnerability just isn’t bandwagony enough.
Letsgetgoing123 · 08/10/2020 07:25

The problem is that covid causes acute respiratory problems in certain people, who then need hospitalisation.

While I can understand why people just want to get back to normal, how would we manage the rise in acutely ill people that would indefinitely occur?

TheDailyCarbuncle · 08/10/2020 09:08

[quote Watermelon999]@TheDailyCarbuncle

“People have not been allowed to care for vulnerable relatives in care homes - some people in care homes have barely seen a loved one for months and months, 'for their own good.' Research has shown that over lockdown a significant proportion of care home residents died, not from covid, but from the effects of isolation and despair. Many simply stopped drinking and died of dehydration. How is that a positive outcome? That's a genuine, honest-to-god question. How is it beneficial to prevent a person having human contact 'for their own good' resulting in that person's death? How? I am so angry asking that question I can't tell you.

'Protecting the vulnerable' means focusing on the politically hot issue, protecting politician's reputations. It doesn't mean actually protecting vulnerable people, because if it did 'vulnerable' would include care home residents who need family contact to continue living, people who need jobs to be able to eat, people with mental health issues who need face to face treatment to avoid deteriorating, and the many many other people who are vulnerable to abuse and despair made worse by lockdown.

“If your 'vulnerable' only includes one group of people, and the needs of those people are prioritised to the extent that it actually causes the death of other vulnerable people then you have to really ask do you actually care about vulnerable people? Or are do you have fatal tunnel-vision where fear has made you focus on one thing?”

Of course it’s difficult to argue against any of these points because they are completely true.

And the trouble is, whichever way the government had chosen to handle things, the net result would be that people would suffer. Usually the ones who are already disadvantaged in some way.

You do remind me a little of a member of a political party that is not in power, speaking with passion about looking after the disadvantaged, and of all the things that should be done to improve society and make a difference. Great ideas, which would be fantastic but no explanation as to how to make them happen or available funding.

I do appreciate that you are looking at the wider picture though which our leaders should be doing, and that you speak with conviction, which many of those in charge do not.[/quote]
I agree to an extent that 'whichever way the government had chosen to handle things, the net result would be that people would suffer.' But I would point out that never before have people been given the expectation that they will be protected indefinitely, to the extreme detriment of others, from an illness. Never before have people been prevented, by law, from seeing their own families 'for their own good.' Suffering caused by a virus is essentially natural disaster territory - not caused by any one person, difficult if not impossible to control. It is what it is. Selling the notion that that one threat can be controlled by destroying other areas of life makes such little sense that I'm really baffled by people's acceptance of it. The virus causes a certain amount of suffering, but the aim seems to be to extend that suffering to absolutely everyone. Therefore, it doesn't matter if you get covid or not, you will definitely suffer - you will lose your job, relatives will die (of many different causes) before you can see them, your mental health will suffer, industries you rely on will collapse. You could get a virus, it could affect you. It's largely a matter of luck, as it has always been with every virus throughout history. But there's no escaping the fallout of the response to the virus, that's going to get you no matter what. It's also going to get your kids and potentially their kids. Because a virus isn't enough of a problem, we must create a thousand other problems to go with it.

Watermelon999 · 08/10/2020 13:49

@TheDailyCarbuncle

“But I would point out that never before have people been given the expectation that they will be protected indefinitely, to the extreme detriment of others”

Yes it’s unprecedented, but who do you mean by “people?”

If you mean the shielded, they probably don’t feel very protected now, most are back at work, and/or have kids expected to be in school.

If you mean the furloughed, that is about to stop.

I think the protection is for the nhs staff/hospitals so that they don’t become overrun. (Which is a very real threat believe me in some areas).

TheDailyCarbuncle · 08/10/2020 14:18

[quote Watermelon999]@TheDailyCarbuncle

“But I would point out that never before have people been given the expectation that they will be protected indefinitely, to the extreme detriment of others”

Yes it’s unprecedented, but who do you mean by “people?”

If you mean the shielded, they probably don’t feel very protected now, most are back at work, and/or have kids expected to be in school.

If you mean the furloughed, that is about to stop.

I think the protection is for the nhs staff/hospitals so that they don’t become overrun. (Which is a very real threat believe me in some areas).[/quote]
I mean more than just shielded people. There are many people out there on MN and people I know personally, who have got the idea that it is possible for them to avoid covid indefinitely and that nothing should go back to normal, regardless of infection rates, until there's a vaccine and all risk is gone.

TheDailyCarbuncle · 08/10/2020 14:19

The expectation in New Zealand is definitely that they'll never have to tackle covid and that it's acceptable to essentially isolate an entire country for months and months to achieve that.

Watermelon999 · 08/10/2020 14:31

@TheDailyCarbuncle

“Selling the notion that that one threat can be controlled by destroying other areas of life makes such little sense that I'm really baffled by people's acceptance of it. “

It’s not the virus that can be controlled, it is the rate of hospitalisation. You do tend to hastily gloss over this point. Things were reopened gradually over the summer and although the rate of infection increased, hospitalisations didn’t, so more was reopened. It is only now that measures need to be taken. I’m sure no one is intentionally “destroying other areas of life” but what other options are there? Again you hastily gloss over this point.

“The virus causes a certain amount of suffering, but the aim seems to be to extend that suffering to absolutely everyone. Therefore, it doesn't matter if you get covid or not, you will definitely suffer - you will lose your job, relatives will die (of many different causes) before you can see them, your mental health will suffer, industries you rely on will collapse.”

There is a certain amount of sensationalism here. Yes some people will be adversely affected either directly or indirectly. Yes some will be hit harder financially or psychologically than others. That’s life, it isn’t fair. It won’t apply to everyone.

In order to maintain as many of the essential services that these “harder hit” people need it’s essential to keep hospitalisations under control. This will free up the supplementary services, like mental health teams etc who were all redeployed last time to the wards. It’s a balancing act between this and keeping the economy ticking over.

Watermelon999 · 08/10/2020 14:37

@TheDailyCarbuncle

“I mean more than just shielded people. There are many people out there on MN and people I know personally, who have got the idea that it is possible for them to avoid covid indefinitely and that nothing should go back to normal, regardless of infection rates, until there's a vaccine and all risk is gone.”

I’m not sure I know any of those.

I know of people who are more careful now, only doing essential shopping, limiting their socialising etc but none expecting “special treatment “ or protection or benefits etc.

Many of these are retired, still going about their daily lives, but more carefully. The others are people like me, still working, but limiting social activities to minimise the risk of having to isolate as a family, to keep the kids in school. It’s not ideal, but not the end of the world.

What sort of people do you mean?

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