What is reasonable for the government to impose on people in the fight against coronavirus.

[Treesofwood]

Most people seem to agree it is reasonable to

1. Prevent people from seeing people they love.
2. Prevent people from going to school.
3. Prevent people from going to the theatre.
4. Force people to wear cloth over most of their face even if they don't want to in public.
5. Stop people from hugging.
6. Stop people from working.
7. Stop children from playing with their friends in the park.
8. Force people who are well into self isolation for two weeks.
9. Ban people from having sex with people they don't live with.

10. Stop (just) adult children from going back to their family home from university.

I would have never believed someone who told me a year ago that these laws/"guidance" would be in place.

There are some things that it is not seen as reasonable for the government to do, despite the fact it would save lives.

But I would argue that most of the things above would have been laughed off as ridiculous in 2019. After all we don't live in a police state.

Where will it end? How much further down the line will we go. How many more things will we lose? Bodily autonomy? It will definitely head that way if some MPs have their way.

Not this level of double standards:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8803295/Five-welders-jailed-TWO-WEEKS-breaking-coronavirus-restrictions-Isle-Man.html

@TrustTheGeneGenie

'Having a choice is always fairer than not having a choice, Larry.'

Well actually it really is not that simple.

My choice to drive without a licence and drunk would affect your choice to let your children out to play near a road. My choice to carry a knife with me would affect your choice to go about unarmed and unafraid.

And, right now, if I decided that my right was to go out with symptomatic Covid and breathe on people, that would affect many people's choice to go out and have a normal day out.

We always make compromises with the amount of choice we let individuals have, in order to make society work well enough that the most people have the most freedom. Total individual freedom is impossible.

So, in conclusion, I do think that it is reasonable to restrict access to certain services to those who, without reason, decline to be vaccinated. This happens in many democracies already.

Does mandatory vaccination happen with brand new vaccines in other countries? Does it happen with a vaccine where the benefit is mostly to others rather than the individual taking the vaccine? Vaccines usually involve giving a healthy person a drug on the basis that it is better for them not to catch that illness. On that basis most people are happy to be vaccinated. It wouldn't be the case with this one as the majority are not at risk from cv19. I would like to hope that we live in a mature enough democracy to have these discussions rather than impose a vaccine as a condition of being able to do business and travel.

The majority are not at risk (according to your definition) from measles, mumps or rubella.. Rubella, especially is no risk except to pregnant women.

I think a mature democracy accepts some limitations on freedom for the good of all.

It is an immature one that believes individual choice trumps all.

[quote larrygrylls]@TrustTheGeneGenie

'Having a choice is always fairer than not having a choice, Larry.'

Well actually it really is not that simple.

My choice to drive without a licence and drunk would affect your choice to let your children out to play near a road. My choice to carry a knife with me would affect your choice to go about unarmed and unafraid.

And, right now, if I decided that my right was to go out with symptomatic Covid and breathe on people, that would affect many people's choice to go out and have a normal day out.

We always make compromises with the amount of choice we let individuals have, in order to make society work well enough that the most people have the most freedom. Total individual freedom is impossible.

So, in conclusion, I do think that it is reasonable to restrict access to certain services to those who, without reason, decline to be vaccinated. This happens in many democracies already.[/quote]
Someone not having a vaccine is in no way comparable to drink driving and I think you know that.

You cannot force people to have something injected into them.

And drink driving is a choice in as much as you can do it and nobody can really stop you but let's not pretend the risk is comparable be size you're embarrassing yourself.

Daisychain. We are not talking about people not going to Lanzarote
People are losing their jobs, businesses and livelihoods. Their homes, their children's security.
People are commiting suicide because of these restrictions. (whoever up thread was so indescribly ignorant about the impact of mental health needs to open their eyes)
Homeless people are still on the streets, picking up used masks from the floor to enable them to buy food.
Don't say its all about holidays in the canaries and a cup of coffee FFS.
Elderly people are dying alone, slowly, confused and lonely after 6 months of not being allowed to see their loved ones. Thinking they've done something wrong, they are being punished. Isolated in their rooms.
It's not all about saving lives. There are other agendas. And there is

Propaganda too. As there was in WW2.

Most parents are happy to give their children mmr because measles can kill children and babies, mumps can make boys infertile. Rubella affects the unborn so it makes good sense as a parent to not want your child to catch it either to pass it to you if you get pregnant or to catch it when they are pregnant.

A mature democracy accepts some level of debate and persuasion. Not the imposition of a vaccine. Especially where it won't be possible to sue the makers if there are side effects.

Vaccines are important and making this one mandatory would undermine trust.

Larry.
Take an 8 year old. No real risk of dying or of serious ongoing conditions from Covid itself. Immune system totally capable of seeing it off without child even knowing they have come into contact with it.
Vaccine for said child comes with a relatively low risk of comications. Maybe GBS, or this spine thing they've spoken about, or narcolepsy. New vaccine, so noone is completely sure, but risk is around 0.8% of serious complications.
Are you seriously going to prevent that child from having an education unless they trade the risk of a symptomless or mild illness with the higher risk of serious complications?
Is pay off worth it? So that you feel safer walking down the street? If people feel the risk of the illness is higher than the risk of the vaccine they will have it. Don't force it on children.
Also the child won't be old enough to make the decision. Are you going to punish that child for their parents decisions by removing their right to an education?

A paper about the effectiveness of the lockdowns

www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.26.20202267v1.full.pdf

It isn’t straightforward. The data doesn’t really back up continued mass lockdowns

Nappyvalley
The government have made it impossible to sue vaccine makers for any side effects of vaccines. They have recently consulted on increasing this cover to people administering it, including people who are not health professionals. (maybe the army? Not sure who would be administering vaccines with no health training but there you go)

Sorry nappy I misread your post.

@TrustTheGeneGenie

I assuredly do not feel embarrassed rebutting your silly and absolutist arguments.

The US requires vaccination to attend public schools in all 50 states. France has 11 (I think) mandatory vaccines before the age of 2 and Italy is starting to mandate vaccines due to Measles epidemics.

Sure, we can discuss this vaccine. But mandating vaccination to give herd immunity to a nation is not outlandish in mature democracies.

Nappy,

I find it interesting that you think it is reasonable to give an 8 year old a Rubella vaccine to protect the mother and future unborn children (but no risk to themselves) but not a vaccine to protect the general population.

In both cases the 8 year old has no choice in having this vaccine. In both cases, they are not themselves at risk.

Larry,
Boys didn't have rubella until it was included with mumps and measles. Before that only girls had it to protect themselves as mothers.

Besides huge track record on safety there. Not an unknown new vaccine made using new technology.

[quote larrygrylls]@TrustTheGeneGenie

I assuredly do not feel embarrassed rebutting your silly and absolutist arguments.

The US requires vaccination to attend public schools in all 50 states. France has 11 (I think) mandatory vaccines before the age of 2 and Italy is starting to mandate vaccines due to Measles epidemics.

Sure, we can discuss this vaccine. But mandating vaccination to give herd immunity to a nation is not outlandish in mature democracies.[/quote]
You should do. Your comparison was ridiculous.

And yes, perhaps they do but is that for conditions that actually affect children?

It's not democratic to take away people choice in fact it's the opposite.

If it were a vaccine that you had because it protected YOU perhaps id feel different. And you know what? I will likely have it but I don't feel like being forced to do anything else against my will.

You tell people they have to do something they do the opposite.

@TrustTheGeneGenie

People, on the whole, have been pretty communitarian over Covid.

The fact that you cannot abide any national authority does not mean most do not understand the need and do their best to comply.

I genuinely struggle as to why anyone with a healthy child would not get them vaccinated. The idea that my child might make a teacher seriously ill (or worse) merely to avoid an infinitesimal risk (the vaccines are being thoroughly tested for safety, despite internet rumours) is not really thinkable.

I think you need to speak for yourself here.

[quote larrygrylls]@TrustTheGeneGenie

People, on the whole, have been pretty communitarian over Covid.

The fact that you cannot abide any national authority does not mean most do not understand the need and do their best to comply.

I genuinely struggle as to why anyone with a healthy child would not get them vaccinated. The idea that my child might make a teacher seriously ill (or worse) merely to avoid an infinitesimal risk (the vaccines are being thoroughly tested for safety, despite internet rumours) is not really thinkable.

I think you need to speak for yourself here.[/quote]
Larry did you actually read what I said?

I cannot abide by any national authority? Do you want to tell me what rules I've broken then?? Go on??

Complying with rules and injecting yourself to benefit others but not yourself is very different. And I think more people than you think are sick and fucking tired of putting everyone else above themselves.

I also haven't even said I won't vaccinate my child which you wouldn't know because you don't. Fucking. Read.

I said I want the choice and not to be forced by some government fuck wit and his do good thicko followers. Comprende??

Larry. You don't know about a new vaccine.

Would you honestly think it was worth it for your child developed narcolepsy? Or suffers long term damage to their spinal nerve?

Would you be pleased you did it, and say to your child "at least your teacher didn't catch covid"

Larry, this clip is 41 seconds long.
twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1309030154837135362?s=09
Please give it a listen

Lockdown as we have experienced is maybe not as communitarian as you might think.

Measles kills, diphtheria kills, polio kills, flu kills but the vaccinations have never been mandatory.

There is a line we used to understand should not be crossed.

I think that is why a lot of people are concerned, because they see these lines being crossed without much real thought or consideration for the long-term implications.

Oh god. I’m so glad to find this thread. I’m raging mad!!!!! Utterly furious.

I have the delights of living in scotland. I can’t have my mother or sister in my home - I can only meet them in the pub.

My kids haven’t had a swimming lesson since March and no sign of it changing

All their musical activities curtailed.

Several friends are borderline suicidal - no help available. Friend’s mum died of cancer - awful treatment and horrific restrictions not to mention a non existent funeral.

My kids can’t get to the dentist as they are NHS.

I could go on and on and on.

And I’m not vaccinating my children for a disease they aren’t at risk from. That is morally repugnant.

I’m distraught at what has happened and have lost all faith and trust in governments

larry I trusted vaccines too until the “well tested” HPV vaccine ruined the life of my friend’s teenage daughter, which wasn’t reported as the damage was “coincidental”. There is a Facebook group for parents of
girls damaged by the HPV vaccine. Have a read before you have such blind faith in a system which is not fail safe

And I’m amazed people don’t think the NHS has been shut. It still is for many! Have people no idea about what has actually happened? This ranges from delayed “minor” surgery to cancer tests such as colonoscopies to B12 injections to mental health support. Wake the fuck up