What is reasonable for the government to impose on people in the fight against coronavirus.

[Treesofwood]

Most people seem to agree it is reasonable to

1. Prevent people from seeing people they love.
2. Prevent people from going to school.
3. Prevent people from going to the theatre.
4. Force people to wear cloth over most of their face even if they don't want to in public.
5. Stop people from hugging.
6. Stop people from working.
7. Stop children from playing with their friends in the park.
8. Force people who are well into self isolation for two weeks.
9. Ban people from having sex with people they don't live with.

10. Stop (just) adult children from going back to their family home from university.

I would have never believed someone who told me a year ago that these laws/"guidance" would be in place.

There are some things that it is not seen as reasonable for the government to do, despite the fact it would save lives.

But I would argue that most of the things above would have been laughed off as ridiculous in 2019. After all we don't live in a police state.

Where will it end? How much further down the line will we go. How many more things will we lose? Bodily autonomy? It will definitely head that way if some MPs have their way.

This is the thing. I don’t think many people are considering that elderly folk might not want to give up family and social contact. My MIL has two of her granddaughters to sleep over regularly and she is clinically vulnerable. She just doesn’t want to be without them and I get that.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-54408723

Hamstersarse
That video is unbearably sad and inhumane. Utter madness.

Larry
You have no proof at all that lockdown worked. Correlation is not causation. And in fact I would argue that the correlation was not that great. Cases continued to rise in the North of the UK after lockdown, but not London and southeast. And numbers in the North were lower to start with so should have been easier to stem.
I think covid cases are impacted by the angle of the sun. They decreased in late March, starting with South and moving up, and increased in mid September starting in North and moving down.

@Northernsoulgirl45 that article is heartbreaking. I feel absolutely sick about what happened in the care homes.

I overheard an elderly lady in the post office the other day talking about how much she hated the restrictions. And Captain Tom is in the Guardian saying loneliness is dreadful for older folk and we need to talk to them. Which pretty much runs contrary to the isolation guidelines, but he knows what he’s talking about.

@GetOffYourHighHorse

'the average age of people who die from covid is 82. I don't know where you got this idea that everyone over 40 is gonna drop dead if they get infected, but it is incorrect.'

Oh well that's ok then! Who cares about the old people! Many with chronic health conditions end up in hospital with covid. Have you seen how admissions are increasing? Many end up in ICU. Now 'average ages of people who die' might be all you're interested in but these are people's loved ones, not just statistics. A month on a ventilator isn't much fun either for those who do survive.

The restrictions aren't that bad if it prevents those with medical problems and these apparently dispensable (fit) 82yr olds dying.

How sad that some see their 'right' to go to the pub after 10pm more important than playing their part in keeping rates of infection down.

Of course when anyone passes away it’s terribly sad, and yes they may be someone’s loved one and ‘not just a statistic’, but at the risk of sounding horribly callous here, people die every day.

I also really dislike your sarcastic comment about how some people see their right to go down the pub after 10pm more important than playing their part to keep the infection rate down, as if that’s the only restriction people are objecting to

I think you are failing to see the bigger picture here. What about the collateral damage we will see in the months and years to come caused by all of these restrictions? Have you not considered the number of people young and old who will die needlessly as a result of missed screening appointments? Poverty? Depression?

I can tell from your sarcastic ‘who cares about old people’ comment that you are just assuming anyone who dares question these restrictions is simply a selfish arse. I think that is completely unfair. Some people may actually be looking at the bigger picture and wondering what impact all of this may have on their children’s futures and on the society as a whole, doesn’t mean they care any less about the most vulnerable in our society.

I also really dislike your sarcastic comment about how some people see their right to go down the pub after 10pm more important than playing their part to keep the infection rate down, as if that’s the only restriction people are objecting to

This is standard lockdown enthusiast rhetoric, the most essential human right (freedom) is reduced to trivial, nonsensical components to confuse the situation.

You're happy for people to die so you can

-go for a piss up in the pub
-buy a tarty shirt in Zara
-have a cheap package holiday in Benidorm
-watch some Hollywood monstrosity in the theatre
-eat a cheeky kebab
-go to a grim Christmas party where people just get drunk and throw up

and so on

Also, 'all that's asked of you is that you sit on your arse and watch Netflix for a bit which is what you normally do anyway so stop pretending like this is some kind of hardship'

and so on.

@Refractory 100% with you there. I really think this pandemic has brought a lot of the self righteous, narrow minded, judgemental sods out of the woodwork. It’s like some people are desperate for the opportunity to condemn the actions and opinions of others without fully understanding their reasoning behind such thoughts and actions.

Everything is black and white in the eyes of the lockdown enthusiasts, they’re the good virtuous people who are happily complying or in fact better than that, demanding more restrictions be put in place in order to ‘save lives’. Everyone else is a selfish bastard who couldn’t give a shiny shite about the vulnerable, and only question restrictions placed upon them because they want to have a pint with their mates after 10pm 🙄

Well said, Refractory.

The other issue I have is the extent to which they are using it as leverage. "If numbers keep rising we will know you're not behaving, and then we will have to bring in more restrictions... everything is on the table", yada yada yada.

These are people's lives and livelihoods they're playing with. Honestly! It's like anything that isn't Covid just doesn't matter...

dementedma That’s so sad, sorry to hear this. Sending love

'also really dislike your sarcastic comment about how some people see their right to go down the pub after 10pm more important than playing their part to keep the infection rate down, as if that’s the only restriction people are objecting to'

Do you? Oh I do apologise 🙄

Schools are open, shops are open. What dreadful restrictions are you stamping your feet about then? Care homes are protecting their vulnerable which is what people actually wanted a few short months ago. Households in some areas in the NW and NE can't mix, as this has been shown to be the greatest transmission environment.

'really think this pandemic has brought a lot of the self righteous, narrow minded, judgemental sods out of the woodwork'

Its certainly brought a lot of self centred, weak people out of the woodwork.

Many, many others can cope with these inconveniences to our way of lives if it keeps it under control and protects those in high risk groups. The older people, the disabled, those with chronic medical conditions. Try a bit of compassion and stop over dramatising over 'civil rights'.

Hamster The Grimes clip shows one jobsworth. I have been to a funeral that was nothing like that so it is incredibly unfair to suggest all those carrying out funerals behave like that.

'the average age of people who die from covid is 82. I don't know where you got this idea that everyone over 40 is gonna drop dead if they get infected, but it is incorrect.'

Does anyone have a source for this as I though PHE didn't publish actual ages just ranges please?

Plus I guess the acerage depends on what average you use.

Thank you

@Northernsoulgirl45 in England anyway the ages are published daily, I think.

Many, many others can cope with these inconveniences to our way of lives if it keeps it under control and protects those in high risk groups. The older people, the disabled, those with chronic medical conditions. Try a bit of compassion and stop over dramatising over 'civil rights'

I think if the govt did it's bit by making sure testing and TnT are fit for purpose and if these restrictions actually worked, then sure.

But right now infections in CH's are increasing, there is no routine testing of CH or agency staff.

Even the 10pm curfew seems to be counter productive & travel to and fro hi risk areas to low ones isn't barred (in most cases) or against guidelines.

Personally i think the 10pm curfew is more about reducing the burden on AE dept's than covid transmission, so is one restriction that will stay once this crisis is over.

Good to see the opposition now calling for Hancock to resign, he is inept.

'Good to see the opposition now calling for Hancock to resign, he is inept.'

Well there's no surprise there is there? Of course the opposition will call for resignations.

PHE and their dusty old computer systems. Ok for monitoring chicken pox outbreaks at primary school, woefully out of their depth in a pandemic.

I overheard an elderly lady in the post office the other day talking about how much she hated the restrictions. And Captain Tom is in the Guardian saying loneliness is dreadful for older folk and we need to talk to them. Which pretty much runs contrary to the isolation guidelines, but he knows what he’s talking about.

My uncle (85) and his partner (91) gave up staying at home long ago. They started off staying at home, having shopping delivered, not seeing anyone etc but suddenly changed their outlook and started going shopping, to garden centres and living pretty much as they did before. Actually better than before as he was lucky enough to have a hip replacement 6 weeks before lockdown.

@PinkSparklyPussyCat

I overheard an elderly lady in the post office the other day talking about how much she hated the restrictions. And Captain Tom is in the Guardian saying loneliness is dreadful for older folk and we need to talk to them. Which pretty much runs contrary to the isolation guidelines, but he knows what he’s talking about.

My uncle (85) and his partner (91) gave up staying at home long ago. They started off staying at home, having shopping delivered, not seeing anyone etc but suddenly changed their outlook and started going shopping, to garden centres and living pretty much as they did before. Actually better than before as he was lucky enough to have a hip replacement 6 weeks before lockdown.

@PinkSparklyPussyCat who can blame them? I was saying upthread that MIL is refusing to stop seeing her grandchildren now. She did nearly 6 months without them and she has just quietly decided she’s not doing it again. It was awful for her last time.

Only ranges tnough not actual age. I saw age 40 to 80 one day which isn't helpful
I think ONs does ranges too. I know in the early days 50% were over 80 but this is hardly surprising given care home fiasco.

For those looking for age ranges of deaths here you go www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19roundup/2020-03-26#coviddeaths

They don't publish an average age but based on the numbers, It would be about 80 I think.

'They don't publish an average age but based on the numbers, It would be about 80 I think.'

It isn't only the death rate and average age of death that is relevant though. Don't you remember the scenes in critical care in Italy? Many patients on life support were in their 40s and 50s. They don't tend to ventilate elderly peope with life limiting conditions so for ICUs to be overwhelmed shows older people may be more likely to die but any age can become critically ill.

I know lots of people working in critical care and it is the often obese, but previously 'fit' 40 and 50 year olds on ventilators. Some people seem brainwashed that's its only a cold and only ancient people get it badly so who cares. A couple of weeks on a vent could wipe you out for months after. Now that would really be inconvenient and curtail trips to the pub.

No-one has been allowed to see my nan for 7 months. No discussion, no weighing of risks, no DOLS assessment, they shut her care home to visitors in March and that was it, they kept it shut during the summer months as well to visitors and I'm not sure why they couldn't have facilitated outside socially distanced meet ups during that time. To be honest I'm not sure they even take the residents outside very much, she lives between her room and a communal room which is small where they eat their dinner and watch tv.
She has dementia and her mental state has declined rapidly as has her mobility. It's just no life, and if she had a lucid moment and was given the option I'm sure she would choose to take her chances with the possibility of catching Covid rather than be locked away with no end in sight.
There needs to be careful discussion and debate about restrictions to curb this virus. I don't claim to know what the answers are, but there needs to be an acknowledgement that some measures do more harm than good.

@Refractory

I also really dislike your sarcastic comment about how some people see their right to go down the pub after 10pm more important than playing their part to keep the infection rate down, as if that’s the only restriction people are objecting to

This is standard lockdown enthusiast rhetoric, the most essential human right (freedom) is reduced to trivial, nonsensical components to confuse the situation.

You're happy for people to die so you can

-go for a piss up in the pub
-buy a tarty shirt in Zara
-have a cheap package holiday in Benidorm
-watch some Hollywood monstrosity in the theatre
-eat a cheeky kebab
-go to a grim Christmas party where people just get drunk and throw up

and so on

Also, 'all that's asked of you is that you sit on your arse and watch Netflix for a bit which is what you normally do anyway so stop pretending like this is some kind of hardship'

and so on.

Well said! I'm sick of people saying you just need to be more "resilient". I lost my shit over a broken washing machine this morning and realised I'm massively depressed. I'm on maternity leave,in local lockdown and my partner works 12 hour days. I cant see my family and my only company is my kids!

@GetOffYourHighHorse you do seem positively obsessed by trips to the pub. I can assure you that on a personal level, I'm pretty ambivalent about pub opening but am a tad concerned about the long term impacts of it's closure and restrictions on the economy.

My own main concerns about lockdown are being able to see my octogenarian DPs - preferably not in a pub or restaurant as more risky for them, or outside as it's a bit nippy for them what with being octogenarians and all -, and my DS continuing to receive face to face teaching in a fairly important year and being able to carry out sports with his friends that will help to prevent a life long obesity problem.

I don't disagree that some people have suffered badly from covid and some have long term medical conditions as a result. It would be good to understand the stats from that and how many have chronic conditions versus those who will eventually recover fully but slowly ( such as many people do from pneumonia).

Actually and handily BBC website has an article about long covid and numbers impacted. Need to get back to work but thought it would be interesting to people www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54296223

I don't blame her @AgentCooper (I love the name by the way!). My Uncle has been in our house and we've been in theirs. As we were leaving his partner thanked us for going round as it was lovely to see other people.