To all those all think let's just let everyone get it...

[Patchworkpatty]

I am increasingly frustrated by this mindset. It assumes that you will either get Covid (akin to a cough and a temperature) which will last a few days... Or die if you are 'vulnerable' (huge argument to what that means) and that it's better just to get the vulnerable to shield whilst the rest let it sweep across the population .

Can I please ask you to listen to 'Long Covid' on BBC Radio 4 at 11:30. Presented by the Scientist Adam Rutherford.

He was healthy 42 year old. Struck down on the 17th of March.
He has spent the last months investigating the after effects of this so called 'mild illness' on the younger population , looking at the affect on blood clotting, kidneys, chronic breathlessness and debilitating fatigue amongst other issues . ? A phenomenon known as 'Long Covid' .

... and then tell me if you feel quite so laid back about getting this ?

[quote Blulorry]@Patchworkpatty do work? If so is your job at risk? Do you have children and the added worry of schools shutting.... getting your child dressed for school, giving them breakfast and the phone rings. School rings to say your child has to isolate due to a positive case of Covid in his bubble?

There’s more to it than what you have stated in your OP.[/quote]
Yes of course there is always more to it as everyone has a different life and particular circumstances.

My point in posting was actually much more about the LONG term affects of this virus.
And whilst post viral syndrome is a well documented phenomena following many different viruses .. the sheer number of people with so called 'Long Covid' will have a significant affect on the economy . The numbers are already in the tens of thousands.

So many people are simply assuming 'for fuck sake, this is just another virus, we have them every year let's just shield the vulnerable and let it spread through the population' with the kind of cavalier attitude that can only be ascribed to someone who has not had a close friend or relative die of this ..
Flu spreads and kills in the winter . But not at anything like the rate of Covid. Because the vaccine keeps it to manageable levels.. we don't have flu vaccinations in the summer because it doesn't spread as easily ... this is 'the flu' x 3 plus no vaccine.

It really can't be THAT hard to work out why it's such an issue ..

@Patchworkpatty no I don’t think the majority think it’s just a virus. I think we have come to the realisation that there’s not a lot of options here!! So unfortunately until a vaccine is found.... We will have to make choices!!

this is 'the flu' x 3 plus no vaccine
I think it's more like the flu x 10, how many deaths would we have if we just let it go....we need a level playing field to make comparisons

until a vaccine is found
IF

[quote Racoonworld]@MyPersona and someone else is balancing their risk of serious illness against someone else’s risk of losing their job, house, education, mental health. Who’s to say whose more important? There are other things just as important as COVID. People cannot be expected to have their lives wrecked long term to protect a small amount of others from an illness which for most people is harmless. It may seem like a cruel viewpoint but really what do you expect the long term solution to be? What is the alternative?[/quote]
Absolutely.

It's entirely simplistic to simply say anyone who agrees with the above is "selfish".

@Heffalooomia yes IF... nevertheless I don’t agree with OP.

@HesterShaw1 @Racoonworld Abso-bloody-lutely

Purely antidotal but out of my family of 6, 3 had long term breathing problems. The other two are nearly better now, me not. I know a couple of paramedics that caught Covid at the beginning of March and they are both still suffering. That's 5 out of 8 with breathing problems 6+ months on. All youngish fit healthy people/teens.

The thing is that ..

Mental health difficulties (I mean difficult NOT suicide)

Economy

Loneliness

Unemployment

DV

Education

Health issues

ALL the main problems that lockdown presents are things that CAN be recovered from.. the ONLY thing that had no chance of a change is DEATH.

It's a one time issue, with NO second chance.

That's why it's so important.

Personally I would be cancelling TRIDENT and paying the whole country to stay home. .. with DRACONIAN measures if you don't stick to it.

You have 1 week to make your choice . Absolutely ground Zero. Close the borders and lockdown . Proper lockdown. New Zealand Style (only don't open up too soon)

You choose your 'bubble' .. 20 people. No swapping . Swapping means prison !! ... make it heavy.

OR

Open up completely. and accept that thousands will die... In between is completely pointless. It's a VIRUS !!

Mental health difficulties kill.
Unemployment/poverty kill.
Domestic violence kills.
Other health issues kill.

Covid isn’t the only thing that kills.

Wow.

Lock people up until what op? A vaccine? What if it never comes? What if it's as ineffective as the flu vaccine sometimes is?

What are you going to do with people who need medical attention for other conditions?

Yeah whatever.

*Mental health difficulties (I mean difficult NOT suicide)

Economy

Loneliness

Unemployment

DV

Education

Health issues

ALL the main problems that lockdown presents are things that CAN be recovered from.. the ONLY thing that had no chance of a change is DEATH.*

All these things are well known to also cause death or shorten life expectancy. Are you happy to add on a few years to some people who would have died of Covid this year, in order to take off 10 years for millions of other people over the next few decades? It's not such a simplistic "save lives, recover from the economic effects". Shit economies kill. Look at life expectancy in countries with low GDP and a crap economy - is that what you want here, for your kids?

I only know two people personally who have contracted Covid - both women in their mid-40s. One was very unwell for about 2-3 weeks then seemed to make a full recovery. The other was very unwell for about 2-3 weeks then could start to get up and about again but has continued to suffer with periods of being unable to breathe and hasn't been able to return to work. She has been diagnosed with a partially collapsed lung and separate pulmonary issues. She was fit and healthy before Covid. It is seemingly so random who will suffer long-term effects but it does appear people in their 40s may have an increased likelihood.

almost 90% of covid deaths are among the over 65's
75% are over 75
42% are over 85

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19roundup/2020-03-26#coviddeaths

no one 'wanted' any of those people to die but only 5,656 under-65s have died due to coronavirus -from a total of 52,631. it is madness that we are ruining the future of millions of younger people and forcing them to make sacrifices for something that does affect them

The thing is, the impact of covid is like a really complicated set of scales with so many things contributing to how difficult things are at the moment (covid itself - short and long term effects, jobs, schooling, mental health, treating other illnesses, people's businesses, poverty etc etc).

Nobody knows exactly what happens when you start shuffling the different factors around on the scale. There's no way to know the precise significance or weight of each thing, or how it'll impact on the next thing along. Each individual/group has their own idea of what's most important, but it's based on their own knowledge and experience which is always going to be skewed in one direction or another. Trying to make one thing the most important will always always push somebody else under the bus, it's just how it works. So yes, focussing on the economy to keep some out of poverty will potentially mean more covid deaths that locking everyone away. But lockdown causes problems too, including other types of deaths, and lots of quality of life issues. Trying to find a middle ground can seem like the worst of both, or what's the point - again it depends on the angle you come at it from. We all have opinions on which is the overall best method but nobody KNOWS. Examples from other countries can be useful guides but even those aren't that simple as different protocols don't necessarily transfer from one country to another with the same effects.

It's absolutely rubbish but there's no easy way to unpick what's going on or what's best to do next.

Poverty kills.
Unemployment kills
Economic deprivation kills
Domestic violence kills
Cancer (and more conditions to numerous to list) kills
Loneliness kills

Covid isn't the only thing that kills. Covid isn't the only virus that can cause post viral syndrome. Covid isn't the only "bad thing".

Thank you for listening to this public service announcement

@AlecTrevelyan006

almost 90% of covid deaths are among the over 65's 75% are over 75 42% are over 85

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19roundup/2020-03-26#coviddeaths

no one 'wanted' any of those people to die but only 5,656 under-65s have died due to coronavirus -from a total of 52,631. it is madness that we are ruining the future of millions of younger people and forcing them to make sacrifices for something that does affect them

.. and if ONE of those statistics was YOUR parent, sibling or child would YOU feel differently ?

It was for me three times over ..

My grandpa (81)
My great aunt (80)

But somehow my neighbour.. 42! Has been the one to affect me greatly.

We weren't close . We are rural so quarter of a mile away is still my NDN .. 2 kids under 10.. no underlying health issues. On a ventilator for 12 weeks before she died..

I see the result EVERY DAY of not worrying about this .. 'let's just get on' .. NDN worked from home , ALL she did from Feb was go to Tesco in SE rural area ...

Kids and DH unable to function.

I am guided by the randomness of this VIRUS ...

@MarjorytheTrashHeap

I only know two people personally who have contracted Covid - both women in their mid-40s. One was very unwell for about 2-3 weeks then seemed to make a full recovery. The other was very unwell for about 2-3 weeks then could start to get up and about again but has continued to suffer with periods of being unable to breathe and hasn't been able to return to work. She has been diagnosed with a partially collapsed lung and separate pulmonary issues. She was fit and healthy before Covid. It is seemingly so random who will suffer long-term effects but it does appear people in their 40s may have an increased likelihood.

I have, more than once, had all this stuff as an after-effect of ordinary old flu.

Why didn't the world stop for me?

Presumably because nobody is quite as batshit about flu as they are about our revered Covid.

@RollaCola84

Poverty kills. Unemployment kills Economic deprivation kills Domestic violence kills Cancer (and more conditions to numerous to list) kills Loneliness kills

Covid isn't the only thing that kills. Covid isn't the only virus that can cause post viral syndrome. Covid isn't the only "bad thing".

Thank you for listening to this public service announcement

I agree.

@Patchworkpatty

I am sorry for your loss, but you are a statistical anomaly to know a 42 year old with no underlying health conditions that died from coronavrius - it is extremely rare.

One of my brothers was struck by lightning when he was 21 - the fact that I happen to know someone that has been struck by lightning doesn't change the odds of it happening.

One of my other brothers was killed in a motorcycle accident, as was one of my cousins. I have a nephew who was killed in a car crash. Another cousin killed in a hit and run. I lost both my parents to cancer. I have an uncle who committed suicide. My maternal grandfather died when he was 65 - i barely remember him but by all accounts he never recovered from shell shock in WW2 - PTSD we would call it now.

I even know someone who is permanently brain damaged after tripping on a kerb.

We will all experience grief and loss in our lives. It is especially difficult when someone goes 'before their time' and covid is clearly a very nasty virus for some people but we will all continue to die of something.

2 of the symptoms of ‘long’ Covid (not that long as it’s only been around 6 months) are fatigue and depression. Surely these are just as attributable to lockdown and the general crapness of the situation?

@Davidsparkle, firstly from reading people’s descriptions of long CoVid it seems there are different groups coming under that term. Some seem to be still recovering from the lung damage and fatigue that can form at as the lung scarring recovers. Others seem to be having long term heart problems. There does however seem to be a group with a collection of symptoms which have a lot of overlap - note not identical but some overlap - with M.E.

I have had ME for 22 years. It started after a virus and eventually became severe, I have been housebound for the last ten years and completely bedridden for the last 6 years. ME is lifelong for most and it’s too early to know yet whether this form of Longcovid will develop into a chronic illness like ME. It might, it might not. I really hope not.

The way this group of people with longCovid describe their fatigue sounds v similar to what is often referred to as fatigue in ME but which is an inadequate description. A group of doctors with years of working with people with ME and/or researching it came up with a better name and description of the so called ‘fatigue’ in ME. They call it PENE- post exertional neuro immune symptom exacerbation and describe it as pathological, low threshold of fatigability, post-exertional exhaustion & symptom flare immediate and delayed and not relieved by rest. Recovery back to baseline of already limiting functioning and constant other symptoms can be delayed and if someone has exerted significant more energy than their body can manage long term relapse can happen. As said reading some longcovid stories they are are reporting finding there is a limit of activity - limit varies from individual to individual - that if they go beyond their functioning deteriorates. They can think they are improving, doing more and then wham feel much worse again.

@AlecTrevelyan006

almost 90% of covid deaths are among the over 65's 75% are over 75 42% are over 85

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19roundup/2020-03-26#coviddeaths

no one 'wanted' any of those people to die but only 5,656 under-65s have died due to coronavirus -from a total of 52,631. it is madness that we are ruining the future of millions of younger people and forcing them to make sacrifices for something that does affect them

Interesting, as I remember just a week ago you mentioned:

*On Talk Radio just now Julia Hartley Brewer asked Dominic Raab if he had any clue the number of healthy people

Patchworkpatty, thank you for your opening post. I have not read through all the comments but I read it as you writing this in response to how in the beginning CoVid 19 was presented as a short, mild illness for the majority but for mainly older people or those with co morbid conditions there is a small chance of dying.

However, as time has passed and more is being learnt patient reports show long term sequelae can develop in people of all ages including previously fit and healthy people and it’s not a binary full recovery for most or death for a minority. Amongst those reporting long term sequelae there seems to be a group of people of all ages - a report I read said the age group affected the most were those from 30-49 yrs - who seem to be developing a post viral condition that is v incapacitating and many still are far from being able to work, exercise or socialise much months on. As it’s still only 6-7 months on maximum it’s not known yet whether this is going to be a chronic illness like ME which has some overlap in symptoms with this group or will hopefully be a fairly long lasting but ultimately self limiting illness, taking up to a year or more to recover from. As someone with severe ME I truly hope it’s the latter for these people.

Of course I take on board we don’t know yet how many people will be affected with long term ill health from CoVid and people have to balance the risk of the small chance of getting it with the need to get on with life, but some might be interested to learn that it is turning out it is not that the only two possibilities from getting CoVid are death for a minority and a short, mild illness for everybody else.

An epidemiologist with symptoms of longCovid is rightly calling for health authorities to document recovery rates from CoVid over the long term in the coming years. I hope they do this. They haven’t with ME and it is one of the many problems that has beset ME which has not been taken seriously for decades, although that is slowly starting to change.

Haven't read the way thread (hrtwt)
I couldn't see me surviving it so people who are ok about getting it good luck to you and to those who you are spreading it to