Here's an interesting view. Lockdown is actually extremely individualistic and throws the working class under the bus.

[Treesofwood]

twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1309030154837135362?s=09

People all ready to gout how selfish people are for questioning or refusing lockdown, it's all about saving lives, we have to do. It for the good of the vulnerable...

Well here is an opposite view. And I think it is very very true. All the questioning about who is impacted most and why. Those cocooned in their house, incomes protected "its not stuck at home its safe at home" rubbish. Who are lockdowns (local or national) really protecting? Who are actually vulnerable? And vulnerable to covid or destitution?

Here's an Idea. We could've had a proper lockdown for two to three months so that we could then be back to normal. Goodness, think of all the job losses that could've been prevented!

We can't go back eight or nine months. We can however choose how we go forwards. We're realistically looking at another year of this.

So, we can continue as we are - moaning, arguing, a few half-hearted measures here and there. Lives needlessly lost (many more if we fail to contain Covid and hospitals are full, so we can't treat anyone for any condition), long-term disability of Long Covid affecting a significant proportion of the working age population, and the consequent economic devastation. A dragged out shit situation.

Alternatively we could bite the bullet and take short-term action to deal with it.

Just like an operation. Shitty at the time, worth it longer-term.

xenia you sound more and more like a characature of yourself.

Doesn't work like that. @sheepandcow, unless we keep our borders closed indefinitely.

Yep. It’s been a thing on here all along, MNers in their naice MC houses and gardens, wfh, getting all their shopping delivered, berating everyone else as “selfish” for not doing things like them, whilst making out they are actually doing the plebs who have to go out in it a favour. All in it together my arse.

This

The problem is the people who have to sacrifice the most (younger) benefit the least. The people who sacrifice the least (older 60 plus) benefit the most

And also this

@Triangularbubble

I do wonder whether the people desperately and very vocally keen to save the maximum lives, at any cost to liberty, freedom, social occasions, enjoyment or basically “living” (why wouldn’t you “just” wear a mask, queue, socially distance, isolate repeatedly, shut schools etc....) and call everyone else selfish for hoarding toilet paper or having eight friends round or not strictly isolating would be so keen to put their money where their mouth is. Because imagine the lives we could save if everyone stopped being selfish and hoarding money and instead gave it all to government or good causes, if we all did the right thing by the NHS and lost weight/stopped smoking, if we all thought of others before selfishly driving a car polluting the air we all breathe, if we all gave up consumer frivolities that cause environmental degradation, sweatshop labour abroad.....

Could not agree more

@Seahawk80. Sorry to hear that you & your family are having a hard time, & sad to hear of your losses. I hope you all prevail through this terrible storm.

@SheepandCow

Here's an Idea. We could've had a proper lockdown for two to three months so that we could then be back to normal. Goodness, think of all the job losses that could've been prevented!

We can't go back eight or nine months. We can however choose how we go forwards. We're realistically looking at another year of this.

So, we can continue as we are - moaning, arguing, a few half-hearted measures here and there. Lives needlessly lost (many more if we fail to contain Covid and hospitals are full, so we can't treat anyone for any condition), long-term disability of Long Covid affecting a significant proportion of the working age population, and the consequent economic devastation. A dragged out shit situation.

Alternatively we could bite the bullet and take short-term action to deal with it.

Just like an operation. Shitty at the time, worth it longer-term.

it wouldn’t go back to normal after another lockdown though would it? We locked down for months, opened back up and low and behold the virus hasn’t disappeared.

It’s never going to so we need to accept that. It just delays the inevitable.

We need to learn to live with it and take responsibility for our own health etc.

Very much agree OP.

Both Covid and Lockdown disproportionately effect those worse off.

It’s shit and it shows up the huge inequalities in the UK and how we actually need a society with less social inequality.

Rampant, unregulated capitalism and trickle down economics don’t work and Covid has shone a great big light on that. Living hand to mouth every week is stressful and leaves people vulnerable. I’m not a socialist per de but I do think that the pandemic has shown how we all need each other way more than we notice day to day and that we should value unskilled work properly and tax the rich and large multinationals fairly.

I’m hoping for a shift towards a fairer and greener UK as we try and recover from this shittiest if shit times.

What I find so ironic is the total lack of interest in conditions in poor countries, where people don't get stuff delivered and can't just work from home or drive in private transport. Every life matters, except in poor countries where they'd better get to the sardine tin factories and keep making clothes for primark...

If they can write a law to make it illegal to see your family they can write a law to take private hospitals under government control. But that would involve people losing money...
They did this.

I think all of the Nuffield Hospitals were given over to the NHS for the "first wave".

I would have kept those hospitals for cancer treatment but they didn't.

I will see if I can find a link

www.nuffieldhealth.com/article/nuffield-health-makes-30-hospitals-available-to-the-nhs-to-support-battle-against-coronavirus-covid-19

I do think that a lot of better off people have been badly thrown under the bus too though.

Its interesting to see cars with 'for sale' signs popping up all over the place when you drive through some pretty affluent places.

Once you start noticing how frequent those little signs in car windows is, then you start to realise how deep things are cutting already.

But the statistics do back up who is being most directly affected by the virus itself and who have been least able to protect themselves both financially and in terms of their health.

*I think all of the Nuffield Hospitals were given over to the NHS for the "first wave".

I would have kept those hospitals for cancer treatment but they didn't.*

My neighbour had her knee replacement surgery in our local Nuffield Hospital in August outsourced by the NHS. So they are using them for some treatments.

My neighbour had her knee replacement surgery in our local Nuffield Hospital in August outsourced by the NHS. So they are using them for some treatments.
That is good news.

Is she getting more mobile now and enjoying her new knee?

I still think that they could have utilised the Nuffields more and helped more people like your neighbour.

Nonsense that older people are sacrificing the least.

They have less time left to lose. Lockdown for them is taking away the time they have left.

@TableFlowerss we have never had a proper lockdown. We are an island like Australia and New Zealand. A massive advantage. A proper lockdown that eases carefully - and with continued CLOSED borders (with proper quarantine for essential travel), and yes we'd be back to mostly normal by now.

We won't do anything. It's obvious people prefer to moan, deny, downplay, ignore common sense and foresight. We've been doing it for eight months. Too few see beyond next week. So on and on and on it goes. Fast forward three months and things will be just as shit and not normal. In fact they'll be worse because we'll have chalked up lots more deaths, gained new Long Covid patients, and suffered more economic damage. Shame but there you go.

I stupidly commented on one of the (many) school threads, I just made a point that other jobs have always had a risk associated. I tried to point out that the overwhelming majority of teachers would be safe in their work during these times. I made the point that roofers for example were up and down ladders all day, on one particular day working opposite my house on a roof in high winds. Self employed roofers. I said they just got on with it. I was berated for comparing the risk to teaching, because of course Covid is more dangerous and, anyhow, under no circumstances would they employ a roofer at their house if they didn't have a safety harness! I mean as if they would even notice what safety measures the roofer had, wouldn't bat any eyelid. It's all BS.

I'm not a fan of the pudginess.

But those most impacted by Covid health wise, apart from frontline health and care staff, are those who are most vulnerable socio-economically. The virus has impacted most severely on those already the most unequal - black and minority ethnic communities, frail elderly people, people with disabilities and pre-existing conditions. All of whom are also likely to be the least well off.

So in effect when the middle class confine themselves to their homes they are protecting the poorest and most vulnerable in society.

All we can know is that the virus exacerbates pre-existing health, social and economic disadvantage. And wait till winter pressures and flu combine with it.

sorry that was meant to say judginess. I am the pudginess.

Tableflowerss@ not during the war they didn’t.

@onedayinthefuture

I stupidly commented on one of the (many) school threads, I just made a point that other jobs have always had a risk associated. I tried to point out that the overwhelming majority of teachers would be safe in their work during these times. I made the point that roofers for example were up and down ladders all day, on one particular day working opposite my house on a roof in high winds. Self employed roofers. I said they just got on with it. I was berated for comparing the risk to teaching, because of course Covid is more dangerous and, anyhow, under no circumstances would they employ a roofer at their house if they didn't have a safety harness! I mean as if they would even notice what safety measures the roofer had, wouldn't bat any eyelid. It's all BS.

Yes, it was a stupid comment. Climb up on that roof yourself, if you’re so blaze about risks (but only those that others are taking, I imagine). If we should all be happy to get on with it, you put your money where your mouth is.

Just because someone is happy or even just barely copes with a certain level of risk doesn’t mean it’s right, or that everyone should be.

@Missingsockswheresotheygo

* "We are not all in the same boat. We are in the same storm, but we are in different boats".*

This with bells on. I kept saying this when the schools were closed and people kept saying how all the children were in the same boat.

No, no they're not.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

The lets just ignore the contagious virus and just act as normal brigade seriously think everything would run normally with an infectious disease spreading freely!

They think it will just kill Other People and that their lives will be unaffected.

Abhorrent and morally bankrupt attitudes towards The Others aka The Vulnerable aside, quite how people still believe that is beyond me.

How do they expect to receive routine or even lifesaving hospital treatment if hospital beds are full? And they will be, if Covid is left uncontained. Who cares for you in hospital when staff are too ill to work? Be it from Covid or the PTSD some have developed from the trauma of dealing with the pandemic.

How do we have a functioning economy, jobs protected, if people are too ill to work?

Long Covid is estimated to affect 10% of patients. So far. A significant proportion of the working age population. How do we pay for the massive increase in disability benefits from a reduced tax pot?

Still, Covid only happens to Other People.

So people don't want to risk their livelihoods and their houses to save the lives of total strangers.

Fair enough. The thing is, that a stranger to you is someone else's family member.

Do as you would be done by.

Agree with sheep and cow. Tiny island Singapore with huge population density and v dependent on imports can shut borders and manage. Uk has farms, some natural resources. It’s ironic that the conservatives can’t manage border control when it matters most.

I agree that you probably won’t get elimination, but you can get good control and get back to reasonably normal like aus, nz etc.