Here's an interesting view. Lockdown is actually extremely individualistic and throws the working class under the bus.

[Treesofwood]

twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1309030154837135362?s=09

People all ready to gout how selfish people are for questioning or refusing lockdown, it's all about saving lives, we have to do. It for the good of the vulnerable...

Well here is an opposite view. And I think it is very very true. All the questioning about who is impacted most and why. Those cocooned in their house, incomes protected "its not stuck at home its safe at home" rubbish. Who are lockdowns (local or national) really protecting? Who are actually vulnerable? And vulnerable to covid or destitution?

Totally agree @Treesofwood.

@UniversalAunt

'Long Covid' when the virus has only been around less than a year. hmm It used to be called 'Post Viral Syndrome' and you could get it from any viral infection, but usually influenza.’

THIS

And yes do this too.

@OpenlyGayExOlympicFencer

It should be made absolutely clear to NHS staff that they are our ‘home guard’ in the fight against this virus and they have a civic duty to work where needed.

Of course a few individuals may have commitments that make them unable to relocate- but the vast majority would be able to with support.

I think NHS staff understand their duty to the country and I would hope that the government would be able to request temporary relocation rather than impose it by force of law. There are not many jobs available elsewhere for NHS staff to go into.

[quote Ecosse]@OpenlyGayExOlympicFencer

It should be made absolutely clear to NHS staff that they are our ‘home guard’ in the fight against this virus and they have a civic duty to work where needed.

Of course a few individuals may have commitments that make them unable to relocate- but the vast majority would be able to with support.

I think NHS staff understand their duty to the country and I would hope that the government would be able to request temporary relocation rather than impose it by force of law. There are not many jobs available elsewhere for NHS staff to go into.[/quote]
If you're taking the piss, you're doing it very deftly. I'm really struggling to tell whether you're serious here or not. The 'civic duty' bit is either a fantastic touch or indicative that you're on another planet.

www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/cases-2019-ncov-eueea

They have had more cases and deaths than many, more populous, European countries, and currently have more cases per 100,00 than Germany, Norway, Greece, Italy, Poland, Bulgaria, Finland, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Cyprus and Liechtenstein, and more deaths per 100,000 than Germany, Finland, Slovakia, Luxembourg, Estonia, Iceland, Latvia, Cyprus and Liechtenstein.

I think we can probably learn more from the countries who have the lower rates of both cases and deaths - maybe Germany?

Ecosse - I don’t think this is going to help retain staff. There is a shortage already - lots of vacancies. People will leave and burn out if you give them worse working conditions. It’s like teachers - people can impose more and more conditions on them, but they should be careful because there is already a shortage and people will leave.

Govt could start new services where they train more carers, nhs staff, key workers eg farm workers, manufacturing of PPE.

The point about Sweden @SexTrainGlue is that they have a long-term approach. Lockdowns are not a long-term solution.

Honestly, speaking as a non-NHS worker, if you told me it was my civic duty to leave my young children, partner and my other familial responsibilities, to be moved anywhere in the country there was a shortage, I'd tell you to shit in your hands and clap. Then I'd involve the union, and if this didn't work, I would tell you to stick your job up your hole, explain that your options are either for me to work my notice in my usual workplace or go off sick, and once I'd left if I still wanted or needed to work, I'd get a job as a carer locally instead.

@Ecosse

The point about Sweden *@SexTrainGlue* is that they have a long-term approach. Lockdowns are not a long-term solution.

but it does rely on, people voluntarily doing a lot of the things they aren’t doing here when required to by law.

And I have a feeling that if the government here changed the messaging to ‘you can go to the pub/use public transport/go to indoor public places but you shouldn’t because they aren’t safe’ all hell would break loose with people complaining the government are ruining the economy and people’s livelihoods.

Similarly, given some of the posts on here over the past few weeks, I don’t really see that many people staying if work, or keeping their kids of school with a cold, as advised by the Swedish government.

And we really don’t have the right welfare system to support that, or businesses willing to encourage it.

@OpenlyGayExOlympicFencer

I strongly suspect that if you gave NHS staff the option of 1. moving temporarily elsewhere or 2. dismissal with no redundancy pay and a ban on working in the NHS ever again in the middle of the worst job market in memory, the majority would take the first option.

[quote Ecosse]@OpenlyGayExOlympicFencer

I strongly suspect that if you gave NHS staff the option of 1. moving temporarily elsewhere or 2. dismissal with no redundancy pay and a ban on working in the NHS ever again in the middle of the worst job market in memory, the majority would take the first option.[/quote]
And meanwhile in the real world, we have employment laws and treat people like human beings and accept they have lives outside work

You cannot possibly think that this would in any way be feasible or reasonable.

[quote Ecosse]@OpenlyGayExOlympicFencer

I strongly suspect that if you gave NHS staff the option of 1. moving temporarily elsewhere or 2. dismissal with no redundancy pay and a ban on working in the NHS ever again in the middle of the worst job market in memory, the majority would take the first option.[/quote]
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂☹️😂

Ecosse, Perhaps we could have National Service and call people up to be trained HCAs to work in any hospital in the country. No choice, dissenters will be incarcerated. We could start with you.

[quote Ecosse]@OpenlyGayExOlympicFencer

I strongly suspect that if you gave NHS staff the option of 1. moving temporarily elsewhere or 2. dismissal with no redundancy pay and a ban on working in the NHS ever again in the middle of the worst job market in memory, the majority would take the first option.[/quote]
You were talking about volunteering a couple of posts back!

So if we're now discussing making this compulsory, employment law is a thing. NHS staff have legal protections. It would take time to get rid of these, and would also be an incredibly controversial thing to do. There are about a million clinical NHS employees, lots of whom would be very pissed off at their rights being shat all over even if they didn't mind moving on principle. Them, their loved ones and also people like me who don't work for the NHS but have a problem with fucking stupid would represent a significant enough voting bloc that a government whose PM has just fallen behind the Leader of the Opposition in the polls would have to be feeling pretty confident to take that one on.

Still, let's say they do, and the laws are changed. We're already a few months down the road, so quite possibly the covid situation will be greatly improved or resolved by then anyway, making it a moot point.

But let's assume it's still going on, and the NHS would have some use for this level of staff mobility. Meaning the clinical staff who don't want to do it are facing the choice to either stay or quit.

The odds of any of them being dim enough to believe a lifetime NHS ban would be stuck to are pretty remote. There are already significant recruitment problems in some areas, and this is before the joys of Brexit descend upon us. It would be a clear boy who cried wolf situation.

Some of them would retire earlier than planned, some would look to fill one of the roughly 100,000 care vacancies in the country, others would go into the private healthcare sector which is doing pretty well given the NHS limitations at the moment, still others would go abroad (luckily we don't already have an existing issue with NHS staff doing that, eh...) and yet more would live off a partner's income or their savings while they awaited the inevitable U-turn.

In summary, this is a big festering shit of an idea, and the only excuses for suggesting it are trolling or inebriation.

Private sector will do even better when there are no staff in the NHS. As will other countries with decent pay and conditions looking for HCPs.

It would take us full circle from trying to tie HCPs into the NHS to stop them going into private or fucking off abroad.

Won't they just. My household could afford at least some private healthcare. The disastrous impact of a policy like this might be the thing that pushed us into paying for BUPA.

I agree in the highly unlikely event anyone was daft enough to enact that policy it would be the end of the NHS. Although we should probably not give Cummings any ideas.

‘ I would also put all NHS staff on emergency contracts allowing them to be moved around the country to hotspots when needed’

& to elaborate on @OpenlyGayExOlympicFencer’ point, 1 in five of NHS are Carers.

Yup, that’s 20% of the NHS workforce with non-negotiable caring responsibilities for loved ones (often the most vulnerable) & often at peak points in their career & professional competences - so let’s not affront those who are already juggling like blazes with work, life & caring with the prospect of stunting them round the UK to fire-fight hot spots.

So where are the BUPA staff going to come from to manage the service uptake due to COVID?

In the instance of COVID & other highly infectious complex disease, the place to be is a centre of clinical excellence.

It’s not a covid uptake. More a OST-covid one. They’ll be taken from the HCPs with a lifetime ban on working in the NHS.

post-covid

@UniversalAunt

So where are the BUPA staff going to come from to manage the service uptake due to COVID?

The ever increasing ranks of the unemployed.

I don’t see much benefit in bullying and compelling NHS staff.

I think you would just get healthcare workers moving abroad. Or doing other jobs. I don’t get it ecosse - you are really against restricting people with lockdown but have very restrictive working conditions for healthcare workers.