We were doing ok until we opened all the schools....

[Bbq1]

After lockdown was lifted pre September and pubs, restaurants etc were opened we seemed to have a handle on Covid with cases, hospital admissions and deaths all declining fairly steadily. Since we released millions of school aged children and thousands of teachers etc back into the classroom- boom, cases and consequently deaths, are now growing very rapidly again. It didn't take a rocket scientist to work out that this would happen. I work in a school and I have a 15 year old starting his gcse's so I 100% don't want the schools to close but surely there must be a more workable solution? Couldn't schools be one week, one week off for different bubbles or alternate days? Nobody wants schools to shut but surely in the long term if we don't get something safer in place and just continue sending kids and adults in day after day, then eventually they will close again?

By the time the teacher has caught it from the students it's too late.
You want to stop it at 0-1 child. That is not happening due to time taken for tests. Or no tests.
The kids shouldnt have colds. If they do then
The measures arent sufficient
And the parents are not SD

Isage said it would add 0.5. Of course it was going to add something as everything does. At the point of opening SAGE said we were at 1...
With part time the growth would have been slower it would have made less difference that tests were slow. If asymptomatic then only in half of the shedding time.

I wonder though if 6h in one room is like a home so high chance of spread whereas secondary it's less so more fleeting contact ie non household. More likely to have loads of asymptomatic in primary before a symptomatic one. It could be families who are asymptomatic for covid it being picked up as they suddenly got a rhinovirus too.
Even aside from the children i think 500k teachers and then other staff back at work. And yes about 1/8 of the population now on public transport and i confined spaces.
Judhing by the summer was it maybe 1/8 of the kids in. Now its 7/8.
Its probably because if you get symptoms its 2d contagious before. So the chance of that being in a pub are maybe slight. You are in school or work 5d/7 so odd much in favour of at least 1d presymptomatic there.
In a home you see the kids everyday at least say 3h. Plus weekends.
School 30h
Home 39
Pub meal 1hr
Pub crawl 7h..

Schols are a convenient scapegoat, and for sure they will be contributing to the spread, but they are not the cause of the rise. Numbers were on the rise before schools even opened. The timing of the jumps actually coincides a lot better with the EOTHO scheme, as it takes a couple of weeks for each thing to actually show the affects in the numbers apparently..

Theres a mass scrabbling for scapegoats recently, which tbh seems to me to be people desperately trying to blame anything bar the fucking ridiculous situation with test and trace.

Schools will be contributing, however, everything else is too. As more things opened, numbers were always going to increase.

Within only days of schools going back... It swamped health protection and risked other stuff being missed

See this..if it was days, then they weren't catching it from school, it was from elsewhere, before the schools even went back, but they weren't tested for whatever reason.

I think its quite possible that many kids had it anyway, and are being tested when they pick up the usual snotty bugs from school which do give symptoms, which is then giving a positive result. However, before the bug, they would't have presented ill at all.

I dn't know the answer to that btw^ but it seems quite likely to be at least part of the problem.

I suspect this might be why theres kickoffs about people getting kids tested when they have different symptoms to the 'official' ones. As the tests are now picking up on cases that would otherwise not be official positives as they were totaly asymptomatic. I am not completely convinced that its possible to do anything with the test and trace thing now the numbers are so high again tbh. It was a good idea when they were manageable, and also assuming you could get a test and results quickly. While its taking a week or more from symptoms to test?! No point except for the official figures. Won't do bugger all about the spread.

Again, I don't know the answers though. But its a shitshow, and its not the fault of schools tbh

We should be in a place where we can test asymptomatic children and adults and those with different symptoms. We should be learning about this virus. With our incompetent testing system we’re learning nothing. And the app isn’t even fully functioning, it’s been launched as a confidence trick. That said I do still urge everyone to use it. Every little helps.

Educational settings had the most outbreaks (of multiple positive cases and transmission) last week according to PHE.

Have we done any random population testing yet? Havent seen anything about it, but I have been avoiding a lot of covid news the past few days so have maybe missed it.

I cannot see the point in testing only the 'main symptoms' when its widely acknowledged that a large majority of people get no symptoms but can apparently still spread!

Well our school has 8 confirmed cases, potentially one more awaiting results, and many classes sent home for a fortnight. So yeah it’s not going too well! I hate it because I’m pregnant so I’m wearing every piece of ppe that I can! I look like a nurse but after a miscarriage I’m not risking this baby.

@BatShite

Have we done any random population testing yet? Havent seen anything about it, but I have been avoiding a lot of covid news the past few days so have maybe missed it.

I cannot see the point in testing only the 'main symptoms' when its widely acknowledged that a large majority of people get no symptoms but can apparently still spread!

www.gov.uk/government/news/huge-boost-to-national-testing-study-will-offer-new-covid-19-insights

Official government info here, short answer is we did a bit, planning to expand. However most testing claims turn out to be exaggerated so we will have to see

Zoe app is here covid.joinzoe.com/

@BatShite

Within only days of schools going back... It swamped health protection and risked other stuff being missed

See this..if it was days, then they weren't catching it from school, it was from elsewhere, before the schools even went back, but they weren't tested for whatever reason.

I think its quite possible that many kids had it anyway, and are being tested when they pick up the usual snotty bugs from school which do give symptoms, which is then giving a positive result. However, before the bug, they would't have presented ill at all.

I dn't know the answer to that btw^ but it seems quite likely to be at least part of the problem.

I suspect this might be why theres kickoffs about people getting kids tested when they have different symptoms to the 'official' ones. As the tests are now picking up on cases that would otherwise not be official positives as they were totaly asymptomatic. I am not completely convinced that its possible to do anything with the test and trace thing now the numbers are so high again tbh. It was a good idea when they were manageable, and also assuming you could get a test and results quickly. While its taking a week or more from symptoms to test?! No point except for the official figures. Won't do bugger all about the spread.

Again, I don't know the answers though. But its a shitshow, and its not the fault of schools tbh

See this..if it was days, then they weren't catching it from school, it was from elsewhere

'days' would be right enough, the range is within 1-14 days of contact with an infectious person you start showing symptoms. Average is five.

So within the first week would certainly be attributable to schools.

I understand the desire people have for transmission rises not to be schools, but logically plenty of it is. Schools are good places for viral transmission and the prevention measures in UK schools are very weak, almost non-existent.

In short, of course it is spreading in schools.

I live in a country that has contained the virus very well and has a good track and trace system.

The majority of schools continued running throughout summer to make up for lost time and the remainder returned in August All kids must wear masks or visors (which I was dreading but the kids aren't fazed by) and they have their temperatures taken each morning. The number of infections have actually gone down since August.

@RepeatSwan it's not to do with not wanting schools to transmit. It's that this virus is extremely mild in children (unlike rhinovirus and RSV which can cause serious complications for kids like bronchiolitis).

But the consequences for children of not being in school are significant and in some cases lifelong. Whilst pubs and restaurants are open we shouldn't even be having this discussion about whether schools should be open. We're sacrificing children and that's not fair.

[quote Helloitsmemargaret]@RepeatSwan it's not to do with not wanting schools to transmit. It's that this virus is extremely mild in children (unlike rhinovirus and RSV which can cause serious complications for kids like bronchiolitis).

But the consequences for children of not being in school are significant and in some cases lifelong. Whilst pubs and restaurants are open we shouldn't even be having this discussion about whether schools should be open. We're sacrificing children and that's not fair.[/quote]
No one is talking of 'sacrificing children' that is very emotive language. Anytime anyone discusses in-school transmission this type of silencing tactic starts.

But factually, schools will be driving some of the transmission.

A lot of people on every thread try to convince themselves otherwise, by saying the spread is too fast (it isn't, it is bang on time) and suggesting the measures in schools will prevent spread (they won't, they are placatory theatre).

No one is allowed to speak openly about in-school transmission without heavy guilt tripping.

The government is not going to shut pubs. The 10pm curfew has made things worse not better it appears.

It isn't only about the virus and children, it is also about their parents, grandparents and wider society. Schools drive transmission. Maybe the government could give a shit and do something?

The government changed lots of things within a fairly short space of time (schools opening, eat out to help out, get back to the office) which I guess makes it harder to determine the cause of the surge.

I guess making one change and then monitoring the effect before deciding whether to make another would have been too sensible...

I absolutely agree @RepeatSwan the government should be doing something but it's really really important that children / young people are considered in their own right not just in how they affect other people.

Every increased contact will increase risk of transmission but they are not equal on terms of risk/benefit.

@Helloitsmemargaret

I absolutely agree *@RepeatSwan* the government should be doing something but it's really really important that children / young people are considered in their own right not just in how they affect other people.

Every increased contact will increase risk of transmission but they are not equal on terms of risk/benefit.

I don't want to only consider my children in their own right. My children belong to wider society. We need a whole society response.

More transmission means people will die. I don't believe we can ignore scientific facts.

I haven't said schools should shut, have I? But the implication is always that there are only two options - fully open or fully shut.

Simply no point pretending that having schools open in the way they are currently won't increase transmission. I'm not ok with that.

It's not about your own children @RepeatSwan it's about all children. And a society wide response is exactly needed and for that children need an equal voice. They were disproportionately harmed by the measures and that can't be allowed to happen again.

@Helloitsmemargaret

It's not about your own children *@RepeatSwan* it's about all children. And a society wide response is exactly needed and for that children need an equal voice. They were disproportionately harmed by the measures and that can't be allowed to happen again.

Ah, but putting children in the current situation in schools is sacrificing their futures.

Schools need to be safe (especially secondary schools) in a pandemic. As safe as possible.

We need to resource and protect schools (like Italy) so that they can function properly.

If we want to have state schools open at all, now and for the future, then we need social distancing to protect the teachers and also vulnerable children and their families.

Also, it hurts no one to allow vulnerable families the option of home schooling temporarily, in a pandemic.

How I wish children truly had the ability to choose what is right for them!!! as opposed to what you would like to put in their mouths.

@Pugprincess

8 out of how many? I don't think that's much.

Even my 8 year old, who desperately missed school, could understand that wearing a mask in school was needed or that part time was necessary and would mean schools wouldn’t have to close again. Given the choice of that or what we have now she would choose that. She goes to an independent primary where they wear masks for things such as piano lessons and the children couldn’t be less bothered by it. In fact, some children with vulnerable parents wear masks all of the time and they have done fine so far. Some also enjoy wearing them for the novelty value. The school have taken a ‘take masks in your stride’ attitude and it’s worked great. My DD told me last week that she chose to wear her mask in geography last week as the teacher had just come out of hospital and she was worried that she would catch Covid and have to go to hospital again (teacher was in for a broken leg so not vulnerable) so I don’t think we give children enough credit.

@Remmy123 well it’s mostly staff so actually it’s quite a lot 😩 potentially 6 staff if this next one is positive (lost taste and smell-no cold symptoms so I reckon it will be positive) and 3 kids so far. One lady is in hospital with it too. I’d be happier if all staff wore ppe but it’s optional at the moment. As I say I’m pregnant so I’m wearing every piece of ppe available (mask visor gloves aprons) as I’m not even out the first trimester yet. I do think 8/9 is a lot considering we have only been fully open a few weeks and public health have been out to inspect us! So they were obviously concerned. Some schools are lucky and haven’t had a single case. I’m not saying to close them all but I think schools like mine somethings going quite wrong.

People who go on about sacrificing children tend also to argue vociferously against mitigation measures like kids wearing masks in the classroom.

Would you think it acceptable for children to wear masks in the classroom in order to keep schools open for longer, Margaret?

@Helloitsmemargaret

So I think it would be great to give the teens and tweens at my elder DC's school the choice

should schools in this current situation have

• no PPE
• PPE paid for by the teachers out of their wages
• adequate PPE funded by the state

do you want to be sitting

• in a class of 60 in the schoolhall, because one of your teachers is self isolating or ill in hospital
• in a class of 30 shoulder to shoulder with 3 people coughing
• in a class of 15 with individual desks because the state has funded it (Italy)

When you heard that Mr X (part time teacher associated with the school) had died of covid were you

• very upset because you don't want any of the teachers to die
• very upset because you are worried that other children at a school with 1,300 people could statistically be affected and you have a good pal whose asthma is even worse than yours
• very upset because your mum is ECV and you are worried about her catching it

tick all boxes if they apply (as for my DC)

Very happy to continue, if you would like.

I think if the kids had a choice they would ask for better provisions than the government provided, you see.

here hope you have removed your child from.

It would be absolutely abhorrent for you to put that pressure on him.

Well

• we are in an area with low cases overall
• he likes his school
• I asked for leave to home school temporarily and was refused

So I asked him what he wanted to do, and he is ok with going to school right now. I don't want to lose his school place, partly because it is a good school and partly because there might be problems going to the school closer to us

"People who go on about sacrificing children"

I'm speechless.

I would love kids to not be devastated by the death of a teacher.
I would love vulnerable kids to not be in an unsafe environment at home.
I would love kids to not be witnessing domestic abuse without the safety net of school.
I would love kids to not be hospitalised with malnutrition because they don't at least have school meals.
I would love kids to be able to play because that's how they make sense of this world.

To be made to feel wrong for caring about all these things is too much. At a time when it is all too much.

here I am not really surprised by your response............

You want others to take action so your child doesn't lose his school place.

Very telling......