Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Covid

Mumsnet doesn't verify the qualifications of users. If you have medical concerns, please consult a healthcare professional.

We were doing ok until we opened all the schools....

853 replies

Bbq1 · 22/09/2020 19:56

After lockdown was lifted pre September and pubs, restaurants etc were opened we seemed to have a handle on Covid with cases, hospital admissions and deaths all declining fairly steadily. Since we released millions of school aged children and thousands of teachers etc back into the classroom- boom, cases and consequently deaths, are now growing very rapidly again. It didn't take a rocket scientist to work out that this would happen. I work in a school and I have a 15 year old starting his gcse's so I 100% don't want the schools to close but surely there must be a more workable solution? Couldn't schools be one week, one week off for different bubbles or alternate days? Nobody wants schools to shut but surely in the long term if we don't get something safer in place and just continue sending kids and adults in day after day, then eventually they will close again?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
noblegiraffe · 26/09/2020 19:49

Whilst children may present with different symptoms that doesn't mean they don't generally also have one of the main 3 symptoms which would trigger a test.

This isn’t true. 52% of children (so the majority) in a study who were positive, didn’t log any of the major adult symptoms. schoolsweek.co.uk/government-flying-blind-over-covid-tests-for-pupils/

You only need one additional positive case for a cluster to be identified.

Yes, and given the prevalence of asymptomatic cases in children and the fact that children who have CV aren’t being tested due to 1) inability to access a test or 2) not having the ‘right’ symptoms we can assume that the data for outbreaks in schools is under-recording outbreaks, perhaps significantly.

kerrymucklowe2020 · 27/09/2020 09:35

We were ok until we opened all the pubs

2X4B523P · 27/09/2020 10:39

@kerrymucklowe2020

We were ok until we opened all the pubs
Couldn’t agree more. They reopened on the 4th July and you could see the sudden surge of cases on the 6th September so the timing fits. I wish they would sort out the track and trace in these establishments to get on top of it. PHE has pubs, cafes and restaurants responsible for 3% of cases to week ending 25th September. For the same week schools are on 44%, we know children can’t catch the virus or spread it so something majorly wrong is happening at T&T.
noblegiraffe · 27/09/2020 10:42

God 2X it took a good few readings of your post to understand you weren’t serious!

Too many batshit posters actually posting those things as fact.

2X4B523P · 27/09/2020 10:44

@noblegiraffe
Wink

Branleuse · 27/09/2020 11:38

I think schools are keeping to their bubbles really well overall. I think this spike is to do with everything opening up for the summer holidays.

Hard to say though, as its going to be like this every time they loosen the restrictions. Its not as if we can realistically keep schools closed.
Schools and healthcare are so vital

Nellodee · 27/09/2020 11:41

@noblegiraffe

Insisting schools must stay open and listing issues with schools closing won't keep them open.

What will keep them open is low cases in the community, effective track and trace, and mitigation measures that will prevent the spread should the virus get into schools.

We haven't got any of those things, and the government spent the summer insisting that anyone who wanted the above was simply 'blocking the re-opening of schools' and campaign groups were shouting loudly that it was simply unthinkable that children might need to go back to school in any way different to completely normal.

People who wanted the above were insulted and smeared and told they were overreacting and lazy.

And now it's becoming obvious why we need those things, but it is too late. The testing system is fucked, the government spent the summer encouraging people into activities that increased cases, and six months have been wasted that could have been spent improving mitigation measures in schools.

And schools are closing. Partly or fully. There's an awful lot of children at home, unable to go to school right now because of this stupid, stupid, head in the sand approach.

Exactly all this.
noblegiraffe · 27/09/2020 13:33

From a Sky News reporter:

"A Test and Trace source says the speed of spread in schools came as a surprise

"Schools have been a disaster. The amount of calls, volume of cases. Within only days of schools going back... It swamped health protection and risked other stuff being missed"
twitter.com/rowlsmanthorpe/status/1310186390949441537?s=21

A surprise?! How were they so woefully unprepared?

The same reporter is confused as to why all the focus is on universities when secondary schools are the worst-afflicted educational establishments. twitter.com/rowlsmanthorpe/status/1310117668188545034?s=21

I would suggest it's because the government can blame student parties for the university fuck-up but would have to take responsibility for the schools shitshow.

Oblomov20 · 27/09/2020 13:54

I disagree with op. The schools opening should have been our focus, not/over and above the getting people to 'eat out' in August.

Keepdistance · 27/09/2020 14:19

I agree with you completely noble.

I would almost say though the number of clusters in primary is high if it were true that they were half as likely to get it (then twice as many of their parents have it...)
If they are less likely to spread it then the primary adults should be in masks and that would remove most of the cases.
I note they take this approach in france and it seems they are still getting many primary schools affected so seems the kids are either getting it at home or spreading it amongst themselves at schools!.
If you look at the numbers of asymptomatic at the swindon factory yoy realise that especially with children having none or wrong symptoms the numbers found in a class are likely tiny compared to the true picture and we will see a sudden surge as loads of parents(grandparents) and parent contacts at work get it.
Also for all those in the low risk areas all it takes is a busload from high risk area (like apparently bolton to wales i think) for that to all change,
Also it wouldn't surprise me that different ethnicities of children are effected differently so to assume all kids are low risk for spreading it may be false.
I dont think apart from hospital there will be any other job where every day there will be a covid positive person and no masks or distancing. Pubs are probably next but can have masks and only brief contact.
Even if half as susceptible say 30 kids in a class so 15 susceptible plus teachers. Similar to maybe kids arent usually supeespreaders but with 1000

noblegiraffe · 27/09/2020 14:43

the numbers found in a class are likely tiny compared to the true picture and we will see a sudden surge as loads of parents(grandparents) and parent contacts at work get it.

What we have seen so far is outbreaks where several staff have been affected and few pupils so the conclusion has been that staff are spreading it amongst themselves. If pupils cases are going undetected then that calls that theory into question.

Nellodee · 27/09/2020 14:57

I posted this on the data thread. When schools went back in France, initially it was thought that they weren't adding to cases at all. Now, a third of all new clusters in France are in educational settings, higher than all other workplaces put together (this translated to "the company"). I think this fits with the theory that if cases in the community are low, schools are not a driver, but as soon as cases in the community increase, schools take over as a main driver, simply because of the sheer amount of people in the amount of space.

"With 285 clusters, for the first time, the educational world is ahead of that of the company, which has 195. Next come health establishments (97) and “public or private events: temporary gatherings of people” (77 ), writes SPF. In its previous bulletin, dated September 17, schools and universities counted 160 clusters under investigation (22% of the total), and only 26 as of September 10."

www.lemonde.fr/education/article/2020/09/26/covid-19-un-tiers-des-clusters-concerne-l-ecole-et-l-universite_6053758_1473685.html

Barbie222 · 27/09/2020 15:07

@Nellodee I agree - schools begin by reflecting local prevalence but without distancing and mitigation they facilitate spread. They are not just reflecting caseload; they are driving it

IloveJKRowling · 27/09/2020 16:48

@noblegiraffe

Insisting schools must stay open and listing issues with schools closing won't keep them open.

What will keep them open is low cases in the community, effective track and trace, and mitigation measures that will prevent the spread should the virus get into schools.

We haven't got any of those things, and the government spent the summer insisting that anyone who wanted the above was simply 'blocking the re-opening of schools' and campaign groups were shouting loudly that it was simply unthinkable that children might need to go back to school in any way different to completely normal.

People who wanted the above were insulted and smeared and told they were overreacting and lazy.

And now it's becoming obvious why we need those things, but it is too late. The testing system is fucked, the government spent the summer encouraging people into activities that increased cases, and six months have been wasted that could have been spent improving mitigation measures in schools.

And schools are closing. Partly or fully. There's an awful lot of children at home, unable to go to school right now because of this stupid, stupid, head in the sand approach.

Great post noble.

This is not an academic exercise, we don't need perfect, peer reviewed publications before we can see that sending schools back without any of the mitigations recommended by WHO, Indie SAGE, Unicef and many many other scientific groups is CRAZY.

We KNOW that indoor, crowded environments where people are together without SD for long periods are the BEST way to spread covid-19. UK schools typify those environments.

And if we apply logic we know it will end in disaster as it already has for so many children.

If you want children to get a consistent education, sending schools back as they currently are in the UK is literally the worst thing you can do.

Children off isolating waiting for test and results, waiting for their siblings test and results, bubbles sent home, teachers sick. It's a shit show.

Teachers anxious, overworked, resentful of the way they're the only working group without protections of SD and/or masks.

The disruption of so many different children off at different times, trying to somehow deliver lessons with so many gaps in knowledge. Constantly chopping and changing how they're delivering the curriculum as colleagues go off sick, as bubbles close.

I wrote to my MP in June/July making it clear that SD school in small class sizes (plus masks where SD not possible) was the only way education would not be disrupted. I suggested using community spaces (as so many others have suggested and so many other countries have done - e.g. Italy). I predicted a lot of what's happened in that email. I'm not a genius, it was blindingly obvious this was going to happen. Indie Sage predicted it too.

Children in countries where they've given money to recruit TAs or secure extra space in the community (e.g. Italy) will have less disrupted education than the UK.

It's STRESSFUL for children for so many of their peers to be off not knowing if they've got coronavirus, wondering if they'll bring it home to their older / vulnerable parents. It's not a great education with all the disruption. Being in such big classes is just generally not good for covid-19 but also not that great anyway and at the bottom of the pile compared to many other European countries.

I'd have thought this would be the time that people actually held the government to account for their lack of investment in state education.

IloveJKRowling · 27/09/2020 16:56

Also, allowing all the children going back to school to ALSO start up all the extracurricular clubs etc (exempting them from rule of 6) hence mixing children from all the local schools together is utter madness. Dance, singing, all sorts. It's just stupid.

If we want to protect schooling, children can cope without a load of extracurricular for a few terms.

monkeytennis97 · 27/09/2020 16:57

Thank you @IloveJKRowling 😘

Lemons1571 · 27/09/2020 17:02

DH’s school has opened windows and doors. Though the biggest (show stopping) line of defence between pupils and teachers is a sign. A sign. I’m not sure what it says and I’m not sure the virus does either 🤷🏼‍♀️

Votesforpedro · 27/09/2020 18:20

I love jk - I couldn't agree more with your post. Stupid is an excellent way to describe it all and it does make me wonder how much advice they are are actively ignoring.

Barbie222 · 27/09/2020 19:14

Now in the Guardian, "too many children going for tests." Given that there are a scary number of positive cases emerging in schools, I'd say not enough are going! Article placed on a Sunday night too. There's a lot of panic growing. The management of the whole thing has been an absolute shambles.

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/27/too-many-children-tested-for-covid-leading-study-schools

We will shortly be told not to test our children at all under any circumstances and be left wondering why those pesky cases keep rising.

Eng123 · 27/09/2020 19:32

How about we just ask everyone to be responsible and stop licking each other in the pub (unnecessary social contact) and keep schools open.

Helloitsmemargaret · 27/09/2020 20:07

Or maybe @Barbie222 it's because so many have been tested - hence the huge surge in testing over the past 4 weeks.

Anyone near a school can tell you that there is a snot/sore throat bug going through every class. And yet the Covid-19 rates in younger children is low. Covid is not acting the way rhinovirus is.

Barbie222 · 27/09/2020 20:34

@Helloitsmemargaret

Or maybe *@Barbie222* it's because so many have been tested - hence the huge surge in testing over the past 4 weeks.

Anyone near a school can tell you that there is a snot/sore throat bug going through every class. And yet the Covid-19 rates in younger children is low. Covid is not acting the way rhinovirus is.

But it's not the snotty noses that concern us - it's the alarming number of people in schools, adults and children, who are testing positive. Yes, people are taking their sick children to be tested. You could argue that they shouldn't, but then we wouldn't be picking up the positives, and I just can't see how that would be good. Surely it's better to know?

As for younger children being less susceptible and less likely to test positive, it's not reassuring then that the majority of outbreaks are now happening in primary schools. What are we to make of that? Why are so many primary children positive when they are supposedly less likely to contract the virus? That article raises more questions than it answers. I don't think restricting the number of tests available to parents is the right thing to do. We need an accurate picture.

Helloitsmemargaret · 27/09/2020 20:55

Which I would absolutely agree with @barbie222 if there were enough tests.

But as there aren't, prioritise the teachers - for now until the whole testing mess is sorted. Because children will have colds from now until early March.

notevenat20 · 27/09/2020 21:58

Couldn't schools be one week, one week off for different bubbles or alternate days?

It would mostly be women who sacrificed their careers and independence if this happened. This would be a huge step backwards for feminism in the UK.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.