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Covid

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Witty and Valance briefing today

174 replies

CrunchyCarrot · 21/09/2020 11:24

Here's my rough transcript of what was said. Apologies for any typos as I was having to rush to get it all down.

Valance spoke first and reminds us how virus is spread.
Slides showing what is happening in Spain and France
as disease spreads, expect to see increase in hospitalisations and thence deaths.
England data (but is similar across UK) - cases per 100,000 population by age groups. Can see an inc across all age groups (lowest children). Proportion of positive tests have risen. Samples across pop show a similar increase.

ONS study, about 70,000 across UK have covid infection and about 6000 per day are getting infection,
Numbers are clearly inc across all age groups, a little different across all areas. This is leading to an increase in hospitalisation.

Reminds us how quickly virus can move. Slide showscases up to mid Sept (3,105 new cases) Think cases are doubling roughly every 7 days. If this continues, then there would be 49,000 new cases on 13 October per day. Challenge is to slow that down.

Final word - immunity slide. Vast majority of people get antibody response, some are neutralising antibodies. They fade over time, there are cases of some people being reinfected. Under 8% of pop have been infected and produced antibodies. The vast majority of us aren't protected and are thus susceptible to the disease.

Witty speaks - shows 2 maps of England. 1st shows total rate of transmission, and second map shows change of rate of transmission. We've seen smaller outbreaks growing larger over time. Rising cases are happening throughout England.

In-patient cases in England from 1st Aug. Up till then, cases had been falling, but since 1st Sept steady sustained increase in cases. This tells us if this carries on unabated then the no of deaths will continue to rise on an exponential curve. Seasons are against us, they benefit respiratory viruses and will likely benefit Covid. Next 6 months we have to collectively take this v seriously.

Is this a milder virus than that in April? No evidence he can see of that. Still says for many this is a mild infection (younger age groups) but in older age groups can be quite serious. Mortality rates will be significantly greater than that of seasonal flu. This virus is more virulent than flu.

Treatment is better, more drugs and more effective treatment, but not enough to eliminate or take cases right down.

Four ways in which this viruas will have a significant effect:

  1. direct Covid deaths (get virus, die of it)
  2. overwhelming of NJHS emergency services
  3. v. important - if the NHS is having to spend a large part of its effort on Covid cases, then it will lead to a reduction in treatment and diagnosis of other diseases, i.e. indirect deaths
  4. Some things we have to do will impact on mental health and economy. V difficult balance. Too littel and virus gets out of control, toomuch and damage to economy etc.

If I increase my risk I inc the risk to everyone around me, then everyone they are in contact with, eventually it will reach those who are vulnerable.

4 things we can do collectively to help:

  1. reduce individual risk - hands, face, space, masks
  2. isolate virus - by self-isolation and contact tracing. Travel from high risk areas - self isolate.
  3. most difficult - break unnecessary links between households. Reduce social contacts.
  4. Science - drugs, vaccines

Valance - we'll be living with this virus for some time.

One part is vaccines. Good progress being made. Several vaccines are in v late stage clinical testing. UK has access to a range of different vaccines and is in a good position for supply. We don't yet know if they will work, may be small amounts by end of this year
May see larger amounts in first half of next year.

In the meantime must get in control of this virus.

OP posts:
hamstersarse · 21/09/2020 12:33

@Timeforanotherusername

hamster it clearly isn't killing the same people as flu is killing and people like you are dangerous.

7000 people a year die from flu. A few year ago.we had a bad year and it was around 20000.

How many died so far from Covid.

I don't want a lockdown and I think it is perhaps too early for one at the moment, but i also want the idiots to stop spouting this kind of shit. Its dangerous and it's killing people.

The fact that flu season was so low last year is one of the reasons why our death rate was so high for Covid

It is very much some of the same people. Known as the 'dry tinder'.

You won't like that phrase, but then I guess pretty much everything offends you.

They’re the ones who die a bit before their time in the winters when an extra bad flu hits, or in the summers when a really bad heatwave takes place. I don’t want them to die when they might have had some more time left, but that’s a completely different thing than panicking that we have a major killer disease on the loose which is an existential threat to society. That would be a disease that kills large numbers of younger and fit and strong people. Covid-19 is not that disease, because it hardly kills any young people. Covid-19 mainly takes people who are in God’s waiting room. It is not a significant killer compared to other normal, established diseases like flu, it is in the same ballpark as them. It does not cause unusually large numbers of excess deaths of people who were not already near the end of their life.

What should worry us are the excess, unprecedented, non-Covid ‘lockdown’ deaths, which are an absolute scandal.

rosie1959 · 21/09/2020 12:33

@Bulblasagne

so when is BJ coming on then? I am no clearer as to what restrictions are?
As far as I am aware the PM is to give an announcement tomorrow evening Restrictions have not yet changed
Ihopeyourcakeisshit · 21/09/2020 12:34

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MotherOfDragonite · 21/09/2020 12:35

Aren't they lying about the lowest increases being among children?

The most recent ONS infection survey data says very clearly that "in recent weeks, there has been clear evidence of an increase in the number of people testing positive for COVID-19 aged 2 to 11 years".

The professor of child health and outbreak medicine who spoke on the BBC news after the Whitty briefing also said that there has been an unexpected rise in coronavirus hospital admissions of women in their 20s to 40s.

They think it could be because women work more in public facing roles like retail or care work -- but I think the timing is a bit suspicious, weeks after children return to school, that women of that age (usually primary carers of children of that age) are now being hospitalised. Seems more likely to me to be linked to the unsafe school returns (and fines/penalties for non-attendance).

Ellsbells12 · 21/09/2020 12:35

@CrunchyCarrot

His name is spelt Whitty.

Oh God. I so know that, but as I say, I was typing at breakneck speed!

Always one !!! Jeez
Purplewithred · 21/09/2020 12:36

Excellent TL:DR summary. Thank you!

My money is on no household mingling, starting very soon.

MotherOfDragonite · 21/09/2020 12:37

@Purplewithred

Excellent TL:DR summary. Thank you!

My money is on no household mingling, starting very soon.

Except the mask-free mingling our darling offspring are doing with 30 children every day, right? Which is totally safe. As are pubs before 10 pm. Hmm
73kittycat73 · 21/09/2020 12:37

Thank you for this update - very helpful.

CrunchyCarrot · 21/09/2020 12:41

Thank you OP for taking time to do this.. shame you invalidated the whole lot of information by spelling chris whittys name wrong mind

I know, I am banished to the darkest corner of Mumsnet hell. Grin

Whitty. Whitty. Whitty. Whitty. Whitty.

Sigh.

lots of new studies coming out saying how important t-cell immunity is versus antibodies

Yes, not enough (or anything!) said about that today. I was very interested that Dr John Campbell referenced a study that showed people who had SARS (Swine Flu) still had T-cell immunity 17 years later! That really bodes well for this virus, I believe.

OP posts:
CrunchyCarrot · 21/09/2020 12:42

Link to Dr John's video where he talks about SARS and T-cell immunity, amongst other things:

OP posts:
Delatron · 21/09/2020 12:43

@CrunchyCarrot yes that study regarding t-cell immunity from SARS lasting 17 years was amazing and so promising. I really believe t-cell immunity will be key going forward.

soloula · 21/09/2020 12:43

I think it was questionable in the sense that they never addressed T cell immunity, the impact of false positives on figures (could be they don't impact but it would be nice to know this). They presented a scenario that 'wasn't a prediction' but only one scenario. Have they considered others? What are they? They could have more contextual data as well - e.g. where we stand in relation to March, where COVID stands in the overall death stats, figures about test and trace and the success (or not). I feel like we got a picture presented but it wasn't the whole picture.

And I should add I've followed all the rules and am not a covid denier or anything. I just feel there is not enough evidence being put forward for a second lockdown/circuit break to justify the indirect deaths from the closure of society again and also the dire impact on an already struggling economy.

SquirrelScorn · 21/09/2020 12:47

He did allude to the T cell immunity. He said the up to 8 percent may be a little higher due to different types of immunity. Very much emphasis the ‘little’.

jasjas1973 · 21/09/2020 12:47

Imho Whitty and the other scientific advisors have lost all credibility, they've got too much wrong, especially not taking note of what was happening in Italy in Feb early March.
The Govt strategy hasn't worked (and they give the advice) not least the emptying of the hospitals and all the deaths that has caused and huge delays in treatment for us all.

They both said nothing as Johnson opened up the night time economy, advised us all to go back to the Office....

Then there is their inability to criticise Cummings or anything else the GOvt has done, esp over care homes and testing/tracing
To me they are Govt appointees and now i don't take any notice of what they say.

Sure we all have to obey the law but i think they have lost control of the situation.

CuppaZa · 21/09/2020 12:52

@CrunchyCarrot thank you very much for that Smile

Timeforanotherusername · 21/09/2020 12:54

@jasjas1973

Imho Whitty and the other scientific advisors have lost all credibility, they've got too much wrong, especially not taking note of what was happening in Italy in Feb early March. The Govt strategy hasn't worked (and they give the advice) not least the emptying of the hospitals and all the deaths that has caused and huge delays in treatment for us all.

They both said nothing as Johnson opened up the night time economy, advised us all to go back to the Office....

Then there is their inability to criticise Cummings or anything else the GOvt has done, esp over care homes and testing/tracing
To me they are Govt appointees and now i don't take any notice of what they say.

Sure we all have to obey the law but i think they have lost control of the situation.

Or you could argue by them remaining in post, even though the were most likely disgusted by Cummings, has meant they can influence the government

So we have Chris Whitty as CMO or Dido Harding? Patrick Vallance as CSA or some other political appt with absolutely no qualifications?

Napqueen1234 · 21/09/2020 12:56

@MotherOfDragonite *
Aren't they lying about the lowest increases being among children?

The most recent ONS infection survey data says very clearly that "in recent weeks, there has been clear evidence of an increase in the number of people testing positive for COVID-19 aged 2 to 11 years".*

They didn’t say there wasn’t an increase they said that the increase was lower in this age group than other ones I.e it’s gone up but not as much as it has for young adults/elderly etc.

RepeatSwan · 21/09/2020 12:56

@CrunchyCarrot

His name is spelt Whitty.

Oh God. I so know that, but as I say, I was typing at breakneck speed!

Never ever apologise to spelling pedants!
Toptotoeunicolour · 21/09/2020 12:56

I really don't think Whitty and Valance have lost any of their credibility at all. I'm thankful for them.
It is still too soon to say what has and has not worked and it does no-one any good whatsoever to draw conclusions too early, it only adds to the usual boring government bashing from the usual posters.
It's absolutely vital that schools stay open, and if you can work from home, you should. The extras like having a social life really are way down the list of priorities.

SquirrelScorn · 21/09/2020 12:57

There was an actual graph on the screen showing the increases amongst different age groups, how the fuck could they be lying? This is why verbal reasoning should be taught in schools. Rising more slowly than in other age groups is not the same as not rising.

KisstheTeapot14 · 21/09/2020 12:58

Thanks OP, was at work so only saw a snippet in between emails and phone. Great job giving us the brief.

RepeatSwan · 21/09/2020 12:58

I agree I'm struggling to trust Whitty in particular.

I think we've been let down twice, too slow to lockdown in March and now too relaxed over summer.

But most of the blame rests with government.

Timeforanotherusername · 21/09/2020 12:59

it only adds to the usual boring government bashing from the usual posters.

When you have a government that are morally corrupt then its OK to bash.

I don't believe however that its fair to tarnish the experts with the same brush.

They are trying to do their best. They have made mistakes and they would admit to that, but we need them. And to ignore what they say just because you hate the government is foolish.

Timeforanotherusername · 21/09/2020 13:00

*unfair to tarnish

hamstersarse · 21/09/2020 13:02

@jasjas1973

Imho Whitty and the other scientific advisors have lost all credibility, they've got too much wrong, especially not taking note of what was happening in Italy in Feb early March. The Govt strategy hasn't worked (and they give the advice) not least the emptying of the hospitals and all the deaths that has caused and huge delays in treatment for us all.

They both said nothing as Johnson opened up the night time economy, advised us all to go back to the Office....

Then there is their inability to criticise Cummings or anything else the GOvt has done, esp over care homes and testing/tracing
To me they are Govt appointees and now i don't take any notice of what they say.

Sure we all have to obey the law but i think they have lost control of the situation.

They have definitely lost all credibility

A 9 year old could have done a better 'modelling graph' than what they showed today

Embarassing

I hope everyone starts to think for themselves

  • false positive rate of just under 1% is absolutely imperative at this stage and as usual, completely ignored

I think we have to accept that these people are One Issue scientists and we have been fools to let them lead us on this merry dance

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