To those who just want to carry on as normal

[cpatty]

I've name changed for this, as I am sure this won't make me a popular person around here but hear me out and excuse that I really do not have a way with words

To all those who want the vunerable/elderly to stay at home for god knows how long so they can just carry on as normal and not follow social distancing etc and take the risk, would you forgo the right to hospital treatment if you became unwell with covid as a direct result of being irresponsible?

The vunerable people who are being told constantly to just stay at home, will more than likely require hospital treatment over the winter for non covid related issues as a lot of them do regularly. Hospitals full to the neck of covid patients really isn't going to be of any help to these people at all !
We have a vunerable family member, regular hospital attendances and it gets worse in the hospitals year on year. Sat for hours waiting to be seen despite being extremely unwell (and yes that does happen, its not just people who really don't need to be there sitting for hours on end) sometimes days on a trolley or a chair waiting on a bed becoming available and this was before covid !

Personally i'm not too worried about covid in terms of contracting it, because we have been staying in since March so the risks of contracting it are low for us however the worry is that far too many people are carrying on as normal and this will most certainly lead to a lot of them requiring treatment in hospital for Covid and leads me to worry hugely about the access to medical treatment this winter.
And really why should that vunerable person who has taken care of their health as best as they possibly could and followed guidance to avoid getting covid to protect the NHS, why should that person have to suffer because so many other people choose to be irresponsble thinking they are invincible, it won't happen to them, but then they do end up really ill and requiring hospital treatment. This will lead to an overwhelmed NHS !

This folks is why even if you aren't vunerable. Everyone must do everything that they can to prevent it getting to that stage !

Personally i'm not too worried about covid in terms of contracting it, because we have been staying in since March so the risks of contracting it are low for us

I am presuming you still have an income.

What about those people who haven’t had an income since March.

Would you still be in the mind of everyone should stay at home if you couldn’t pay your bills/put food on the table and the only income you had since March was £450 universal credit.

@SoUtterlyGroundDown

So as well as ‘worthiness’ based on behaviour, shall we also factor in whether people are net contributors to the system too? As a high earning family we are net contributors. If I behave irresponsibly does that negate that? Does someone who doesn’t pay much in to the system but hasn’t left their house since March get preferential treatment?

No sorry.

It's a virtue based system.

Doesnt matter what you've paid in.

Ok, understood @GabriellaMontez! At least that simplifies it .
But... I’m not overweight. Don’t drink or smoke. Exercise regularly. But I have to confess that my dad and stepmum came to see us in the garden this morning which made 7 of us. Where do I fall on the virtue chart? Is it only virtue in relation to Covid behaviour that counts?

Is it only virtue in relation to Covid behaviour that counts?

More like virtue in relation to a set of arbitrary and constantly changing rules determined by the MN collective nest of vipers

7 ? In a private garden? I hope your neighbours dont grass you up!

We could put in a points system.
Everyone starts at zero.

Plus 5 if you don’t smoke
Plus 5 if you don’t drink
Minus 5 if you have accidentally strayed less than a meter from from someone
Minus 5 if you once forgot your mask in Asda
Minus 50 if you’ve ever expressed a desire to ‘get back to normal’
Plus 100 if you haven’t left the house since March

@SoUtterlyGroundDown

So as well as ‘worthiness’ based on behaviour, shall we also factor in whether people are net contributors to the system too? As a high earning family we are net contributors. If I behave irresponsibly does that negate that? Does someone who doesn’t pay much in to the system but hasn’t left their house since March get preferential treatment?

There is people who haven't left their house since March who are also high earners paying into the system!! Remote working has been a 'thing' in many areas long before covid

If course they were just examples, in this arbitrary virtue based system we seem to be using. I am actually one of those who works from home and is a high earner.

And as I have worked from home for 5 years, do I get extra points for not passing flu round the office in pre Covid years? Or colds? Or any other viruses?

@Oliversmumsarmy

Personally i'm not too worried about covid in terms of contracting it, because we have been staying in since March so the risks of contracting it are low for us

I am presuming you still have an income.

What about those people who haven’t had an income since March.

Would you still be in the mind of everyone should stay at home if you couldn’t pay your bills/put food on the table and the only income you had since March was £450 universal credit.

I have never advocated that everyone should stay at home at all. If you can point to where i have said everyone should stay at home forever more than please do let me know so i can correct myself. That is most definitely not the solution we need a functioning economy to have money to pay for any medical treatment in the first place ! It was more about people not following guidelines. People can go to work and still follow social distancing, mask wearing etc. People can go to pubs and restaurants and follow the guidance, people can carry on with their lives within the guidelines I was more on about those who don't even make an attempt to do this, holding large numbered parties and who just don't believe anything about the virus is real and fail to comply with any of the advice given I don't think we should close down restaurants and pubs etc either because those are people jobs and incomes and we should be keeping them open but ensuring they are also following guidelines to try to prevent a massive resurgence in the virus leading to them maybe ending up closed again by the government !

@LEnferCestLesAutres

I'm really confused by the AD thing. They seem so negative, paranoid and angry (dementory?) and I really don't follow what they are advocating for.

Wrong, wrong and wrong again sweetheart. We don't "advocate" for anything.

@SoUtterlyGroundDown

We could put in a points system. Everyone starts at zero.

Plus 5 if you don’t smoke
Plus 5 if you don’t drink
Minus 5 if you have accidentally strayed less than a meter from from someone
Minus 5 if you once forgot your mask in Asda
Minus 50 if you’ve ever expressed a desire to ‘get back to normal’
Plus 100 if you haven’t left the house since March

and surely that is exactly what the government is doing. A points based system to guage who is vunerable and worthy of protection and support and who is not !

@GabriellaMontez

7 ? In a private garden? I hope your neighbours dont grass you up!

No, I put a note through their door saying ‘Boris says don’t snitch’ . Actually my dad came round because he’s just been told that his sister, who practically brought him up, only has a few days/weeks to live. She was diagnosed with cancer at the beginning of lockdown and due to delays in treatment her cancer has spread to her brain and liver. He was pretty upset. So I’d like to see them try and report me!

Bloody hell. Some unpleasant sentiments on this thread.

I'm vulnerable and have looked after my health very well. Some diseases just happen to healthy people.

I can't shield because I have a job, a family with school age children and a dh who I don't want to isolate from for months if not years. Are people seriously suggesting the vulnerable all bugger off completely?

Let's all try to consider others in this shot situation.

and surely that is exactly what the government is doing. A points based system to guage who is vunerable and worthy of protection and support and who is not!

Let’s face it, the government aren’t protecting anyone but themselves.

@SoUtterlyGroundDown

and surely that is exactly what the government is doing. A points based system to guage who is vunerable and worthy of protection and support and who is not!

Let’s face it, the government aren’t protecting anyone but themselves.

Well that is one thing we can agree on !

Vulnerable doesn't mean elderly or disabled. Walk past me on the street and I look like a usual mid thirties woman

I am vulnerable through absolutely no fault of my own, i was fine and then I wasn't. Nothing you can do to stop an autoimmune disease or breast cancer or organ transplant sometimes

I don't smoke, I don't drink and I take my weekly medication with the vile side effects so I can protect myself better

Well that is one thing we can agree on!

I’m not really ‘disagreeing’ with anything. I don’t know anyone who wants to go completely back to normal, although have seen the sentiment expressed on social media by some. I have followed the ‘rules’ 99% of the time.
But of course the idea of foregoing medical treatment if you break the rules is completely unworkable. People are lacking any sort of nuance at the moment. Should I forgo medical treatment for Covid because I comforted my dad in my garden earlier when he was upset about his sister being on end of life care, which took us over the legal 6 people in my dwelling? Or is it just people who go to raves?

And the other point is, people might want to get back to normal but they can’t actually do it, can they? For us as a family of 5 to get back to normal we’d need to be able to see more than one other person in our home (or someone else’s), DH’s office to open (currently scheduled for next spring), all my toddlers groups to restart so he can socialise with other children, my children not to have staggered starts and finishes at school meaning one child doesn’t have to hang around for half an hour at the beginning and end of every day waiting for their sibling, their gymnastics classes and music lessons to restart... so is it all those who say they want to go back to normal who should forego treatment, even though in reality they can’t actually do it?

@SoUtterlyGroundDown

And the other point is, people might want to get back to normal but they can’t actually do it, can they? For us as a family of 5 to get back to normal we’d need to be able to see more than one other person in our home (or someone else’s), DH’s office to open (currently scheduled for next spring), all my toddlers groups to restart so he can socialise with other children, my children not to have staggered starts and finishes at school meaning one child doesn’t have to hang around for half an hour at the beginning and end of every day waiting for their sibling, their gymnastics classes and music lessons to restart... so is it all those who say they want to go back to normal who should forego treatment, even though in reality they can’t actually do it?

Must vary greatly across the country much of what you have mentioned there has returned to normal here. After-school clubs, music, gymnastic, toddler groups etc have all returned and well the rule of 6 lots of people are just making a choice to ignore it when suits. Which begs another question why is it not even across the country. Why if your family are not able to attend after-school activities and hobbies then why can someone else's in another part of country (assuming local lockdowns are taken out of the equation)

I genuinely do not understand the horror some have in others saying we should try to find a way to support the vulnerable to stay indoors (should they chose to) while this rages. Its about giving them the option as much as possible, if they chose not to do it, thats fine too. I have yet to see someone suggesting boarding them into their houses, china style.

I also cannot make sense of the argument that its selfish of everyone else to say that the vulnerable should (again if they want to) stay away from the whole mess as much as possible to protect themselves. But its NOT selfish to suggest the whole country goes back into lockdown? No sense at all.

All the shielders I know ignored the advice anyway and continued having some form of a life. My dad did as much as possible, though work MADE him stay off when they found out he was on the high risk list. He even offered to switch to nightshifts where he wouldn't come into contact with many people at all, and they weren't having it at all..

I really don't understand thse who seem to think that unless we lockdown, the economy is fucked. I see it the opposite way, we are already pretty fucked because of the last one, another would make things worse.

Also those claiming people care about the economy more than lives..seem to not understand that the economy being shit will cost many many lives also. Possibly more lives than the virus would claim..

Must vary greatly across the country much of what you have mentioned there has returned to normal here. After-school clubs, music, gymnastic, toddler groups etc have all returned and well the rule of 6 lots of people are just making a choice to ignore it when suits
Which begs another question why is it not even across the country. Why if your family are not able to attend after-school activities and hobbies then why can someone else's in another part of country (assuming local lockdowns are taken out of the equation)

We’re not in local lockdown. They haven’t reopened here as our village has 2 venues for extra curricular activities... a church hall and a community hall. Neither have reopened their doors to groups.

But the lockdown restrictions never, ever denied people cancer treatment, ever. Cancer appointments were postponed by hospitals to manage the Covid surge. Lockdown restrictions absolutely had a damaging impact on key parts of the country’s life. Cancer treatments were not one of them.
I don't think this is true, unless its a postcde lottery (like many health things actually..)

I personally know 2 people who were having treatments for cancer, one of them a child. Whos treatment seems to have been pstponed indefinitely.

Yes the word cancelled was not used, but postponed is the same thing for some patients really.

It seemed everything in our local hospitals was 'postponed' (cancelled indefinitely..). I do hope that other hospitals did NOT do that as seems to be claimed, but all I have read seems to say they were all pretty much the same. NHS anyway, not sure about private.

As a side note, I understand that carehomes have to do everything possible to keep residents safe also, but..MIL was in a home for just over a week after a hospital trip, and she said the patients were seriously depressed and basically saying they want to take the risk, even if it was a 50/50 one, in order to see family. One 98 year old woman in the one MIL was in attempted suicide as she was basically 'rationed' on visitors, but was only allowed to see ONE person once a month, for an hour, outside. This seems so cruel..I feel so bad for so many people..but I don't know the aswers either.

I agree Op. Although I believe most people are doing their best to comply with the rules, there is a sizable minority for whom ANY restrictions are an affront to their 'liberty' to do whatever the F they want, regardless of anyone else. They use every excuse including 'mental health' just so they don't have to make changes to their sorry lives.

Well, I just hope they don't expect any NHS treatment or Government help during this time. For example, because of having to shield for so long, which looks set to continue, I haven't been able to give blood this year, which is a blow to the system since I'm O neg. I doubt I'm alone. And if schools and businesses have to close? But hey, as long as they can go to the pub and have parties, what do they care?