To those who just want to carry on as normal

[cpatty]

I've name changed for this, as I am sure this won't make me a popular person around here but hear me out and excuse that I really do not have a way with words

To all those who want the vunerable/elderly to stay at home for god knows how long so they can just carry on as normal and not follow social distancing etc and take the risk, would you forgo the right to hospital treatment if you became unwell with covid as a direct result of being irresponsible?

The vunerable people who are being told constantly to just stay at home, will more than likely require hospital treatment over the winter for non covid related issues as a lot of them do regularly. Hospitals full to the neck of covid patients really isn't going to be of any help to these people at all !
We have a vunerable family member, regular hospital attendances and it gets worse in the hospitals year on year. Sat for hours waiting to be seen despite being extremely unwell (and yes that does happen, its not just people who really don't need to be there sitting for hours on end) sometimes days on a trolley or a chair waiting on a bed becoming available and this was before covid !

Personally i'm not too worried about covid in terms of contracting it, because we have been staying in since March so the risks of contracting it are low for us however the worry is that far too many people are carrying on as normal and this will most certainly lead to a lot of them requiring treatment in hospital for Covid and leads me to worry hugely about the access to medical treatment this winter.
And really why should that vunerable person who has taken care of their health as best as they possibly could and followed guidance to avoid getting covid to protect the NHS, why should that person have to suffer because so many other people choose to be irresponsble thinking they are invincible, it won't happen to them, but then they do end up really ill and requiring hospital treatment. This will lead to an overwhelmed NHS !

This folks is why even if you aren't vunerable. Everyone must do everything that they can to prevent it getting to that stage !

@amusedtodeath1

Seems the AD lot are a bit stressed today. Losing the argument brings out the worst in some people.

Good question though. Would anyone be prepared to put their money where their mouth is and forgo medical treatment. The danger is tiny after all?

Ad lot?

I don't think you know what the fuck you're on about do you?

We aren't a hive mind. We're not all of one opinion.

@Theyaremyforeverx

The first person Who commented on this thread *@Walkaround* summed it up quite well ,

This pandemic isn’t just a case of all the low risk people choosing to be irresponsible and all the vulnerable people doing the right thing by staying in doors , I don’t think anyone can make that accusation and it be true , there are a lot of people going against Covid rules and not staying in doors ,including those who are low risk and those who are vulnerable , I understand your frustration OP but I don’t think the Covid situation is black and white as that

Exactly. My nanna is 82 and has dialysis 3 times a week in hospital and has done right through the pandemic so far. She has regularly shared the unit with covid positive patients on a number of occasions. She says she's exposed all the time anyway so if she wants to go to marks and spencers or to the cafe she will and I can't blame her. Infact we were more concerned about catching it from her than giving her it!!!

No thanks, I'll carry on.

And sometimes people don’t always have a choice to be able to stay in doors even if they do need to isolate, as what if your someone who has no family few friends and little support but you need to go out and buy food for example? Are you going to stay in and struggle to get food to your door or are you going to have to wear a mask and use hand sanitiser/ gloves and just go out get and your groceries? The pandemic is hard for everybody in some way or another and some more than others sadly but the point still stands it’s not easy for anyone regardless of your situation or circumstances

So we should risk the future if all of those that are health just do 87 year olds, some of which are not long for this earth, can get out? Sorry op but you are wrong. The vulnerable need to shield. My friend had to wait 6 weeks for a cancer biopsy over lockdown. She was lucky as it was negative but what about all those with lives ahead of them that might loose it. If you have pre existing condition or are over 65 must stay at home.

I've just finished lecturing my mother in law as she has bed. Flouting her local lockdown. It's totally selfish. I do think we all need to keep up the measures but at the end of the day we need to use resources wiselyz

I’d like us to get back to normal now, an no, I wouldn’t be prepared to forgo hospital treatment if I needed it. Why should anyone be expected to do that when they pay tax towards the NHS and are out and about doing jobs that the government wants them to do?

Healthy people that go on to contract Covid probably aren’t getting it because they’re being irresponsible, they will be getting it because they are going out to work.

I think it’s more important now that we focus on how many people have been failed by the NHS while all their focus has been on Covid. I know plenty of people that have had treatments or procedures cancelled or indefinitely postponed, and that is no longer acceptable.

Absolutely- 300,000 fewer urgent cancer referrals since March and 100,000 fewer treatments. This will lead to deaths, including of young and middle aged people.

Where is the urgency about saving these lives?

If you have pre existing condition or are over 65 must stay at home.

Half the people I work with (all self employed) are between 60 and 75...and some have medical conditions, 2 or 3 are obese...and they all use public transport to get to work!

I don’t think it even needs to be a case of telling all over 65s to stay at home. A fit 70 year old with no health conditions is at very low risk.

We have plenty of data showing exactly which groups are at risk- mainly based on health conditions and age. I saw one scientist arguing that most deaths occurred in people who would usually have died in last winter’s flu season (but for an unusually soft strain).

These individuals who genuinely are at risk should be offered the chance and supported to stay at home, by funding wages and providing food deliveries.

I think I read up thread that there have been 300,000 fewer cancer referrals since lockdown than average?
So what if 100,000 of them had life threatening cancers which could have been treated early enough, but proved fatal if not detected?
That’s 100,000 preventable deaths over the next few years.

I think it’s appalling that the masses have not been able to access routine medical care. Hospitals have stood empty, gp surgeries deserted.

I understand that lockdown was needed to keep the hospitals from being overrun, and it worked, but that shouldn’t have included denying access to medical care.

Sorry x posted with Ecosse

@Jrobhatch29 I don’t always feel people understand that not everyone has a choice to be able to stay in or some people have to leave their homes for health reasons Or other important valid reasons and I don’t blame her either , like yes people should try and follow the Covid rules but at the same time people should be able to leave their homes as long as they take precaution like wear a mask when necessary and use hand sanitiser , staying in for weeks or months at a time could have its own damaging impact on a person physiologically or emotionally and sometimes it’s just not possible to stay for days /weeks/months

@Hotcuppatea

You don’t see how your pathetic response actually reinforces the OP’s argument.

If you have pre existing conditions or are over 65 must stay at home

My parents are 67 and 68 still work 3/4 days a week, in reasonable health and fitness with no underlying health issues, they lead a full life, they enjoy walking and going out for meals with friends. They are able to do all these things safely within the current guidelines why on earth should they have to stay at home? What sort of quality of life would they have ? One size doesn't fit all everyone needs to live their own life as best fits their circumstances

I am happy to distance, mask up, sanitise frequently, not go to crowded bars/clubs/theatre/cinema etc. But if I am expected to go into work in a sweat box classroom with 30 teenagers for an hour at a time, 5 hours a day, then I also feel strongly I should be allowed to see my family at the weekend. My DH's family is 8 adults and 4 children- so under the rule of 6 only 50% of us can meet at a time and in reality that can actually only be each of my DH/BILs meeting with DMIL and DFIL separately. So my daughter can't see one set of cousins ever because joining with BIL/SIL and 2 cousins plus DH and I makes 7. But yet I can 'hang out' with hundreds of other people's children all day 5 days a week, no masks, no distancing.... it's bullshit. My MIL has a terminal cancer diagnosis- 12 months tops docs have said- and it angers me beyond measure that in her final months we aren't 'allowed' to all be together as one family group to make memories.

I know there is no perfect answer- doesn't make this pill any easier to swallow.

@Eminybob

I understand that lockdown was needed to keep the hospitals from being overrun, and it worked, but that shouldn’t have included denying access to medical care.

But the lockdown restrictions never, ever denied people cancer treatment, ever. Cancer appointments were postponed by hospitals to manage the Covid surge. Lockdown restrictions absolutely had a damaging impact on key parts of the country’s life. Cancer treatments were not one of them.

If you have pre existing conditions or are over 65 must stay at home

What about care home workers? Doctors and nurses who deal with the old and vulnerable all the time? Their families? etc...

I've just finished lecturing my mother in law as she has bed. Flouting her local lockdown. It's totally selfish

Yet you demanding she gives up her freedom in order that you can have yours is not. My dad is 83 and as far as I'm concerned he can do what the hell he likes, he's aware of the risks and is happy to take them. If I was you MiL I'd tell you to bugger off. "Lecturing" a grown woman? Are you for real?

Why do people insist on treating the elderly like children? Most elderly people are perfectly capable of knowing their own mind.

[quote Derbygerbil]@Eminybob

I understand that lockdown was needed to keep the hospitals from being overrun, and it worked, but that shouldn’t have included denying access to medical care.

But the lockdown restrictions never, ever denied people cancer treatment, ever. Cancer appointments were postponed by hospitals to manage the Covid surge. Lockdown restrictions absolutely had a damaging impact on key parts of the country’s life. Cancer treatments were not one of them.[/quote]
I’m not actually sure that is the case. My auntie is currently on end of life care because she was diagnosed with cancer at the beginning of lockdown and the treatment she should have had wasn’t going ahead. Yes it was ‘postponed’ rather than cancelled, but postponed to a point in time which meant her cancer was no longer treatable.

So only people who are 'being responsible' get treatment?

Does this include the vulnerable? Do they also have to follow guidelines? Shift any excess weight? Cut down on sugar, stop smoking... to get treatment this winter?

Why is someone that’s “vulnerable” more important than me and my children? Why are their lives worth protecting more than ours?

See where that kind of logic gets you? Anyone that’s not scared of the virus should be more than free to continue on with life. Anyone that is is more than welcome to hide away.

[quote Derbygerbil]@Eminybob

I understand that lockdown was needed to keep the hospitals from being overrun, and it worked, but that shouldn’t have included denying access to medical care.

But the lockdown restrictions never, ever denied people cancer treatment, ever. Cancer appointments were postponed by hospitals to manage the Covid surge. Lockdown restrictions absolutely had a damaging impact on key parts of the country’s life. Cancer treatments were not one of them.[/quote]
Whichever way you dress it up, some cancer patients could not access treatment, and as a result will die sooner than they otherwise would have done.

Or the ones that say we should "just" close gyms, pubs, restaurants, softplay etc. Fine. Sorted. All the people that work there will be fine living off air for the next however long

Yep. Usually with some sort of entitled wanker of a husband earning £150k a year for shuffling papers around and shouting in zoom meetings, with a naice house and garden and “DC” in private school

Quite. Saying "we made loads of lovely cakes and did crafts"

@LabiaMinoraPissusFlapus

Have all vulnerable people really taken care of their health? They may have with regards to not catching Covid, but I suspect many are vulnerable due to poor choices anyway. This will be unpopular! How many are obese? How many ate and were fed crap? And don't exercise? Obviously not all of the vulnerable, but I suspect a good proportion haven't maximised their good health. And also, I think we need to accept our chances of dying. I heard someone speaking on the radio a couple of days ago, who was outraged at those not following the rule of six as she wanted her mother to be protected from Covid. Her mother is late 80s! Does she not know that her mother will die at some point soon anyway? Why should those who want to live their lives not do so? I think it is wrong. I want to live my life and would expect medical care if there was capacity, but if there is no capacity then I accept not having medical care.

Yep. I am obese so not ECV but vulnerable and I am following the rules but don’t expect the world to revolve around me, and I am not cowering away at home either. And yes damn right I expect medical treatment if I get sick. I’ve worked and paid into the NHS as much as the next person and I’ll expect to get treatment if I need it. In terms of shielding people with COPD have often (not always I’m sure) developed that due to smoking so should they not get treatment either OP? It’s a slippery slope.

Agree on the older people too, no one wants anyone to die but I remember at the previous spike a post from someone worried about their 93 year old mum. Had it not crossed their mind she was likely to die of something relatively soon anyway? Not sure why a Covid death is worse than any other. There aren’t many nice ways to die.