To those who just want to carry on as normal

[cpatty]

I've name changed for this, as I am sure this won't make me a popular person around here but hear me out and excuse that I really do not have a way with words

To all those who want the vunerable/elderly to stay at home for god knows how long so they can just carry on as normal and not follow social distancing etc and take the risk, would you forgo the right to hospital treatment if you became unwell with covid as a direct result of being irresponsible?

The vunerable people who are being told constantly to just stay at home, will more than likely require hospital treatment over the winter for non covid related issues as a lot of them do regularly. Hospitals full to the neck of covid patients really isn't going to be of any help to these people at all !
We have a vunerable family member, regular hospital attendances and it gets worse in the hospitals year on year. Sat for hours waiting to be seen despite being extremely unwell (and yes that does happen, its not just people who really don't need to be there sitting for hours on end) sometimes days on a trolley or a chair waiting on a bed becoming available and this was before covid !

Personally i'm not too worried about covid in terms of contracting it, because we have been staying in since March so the risks of contracting it are low for us however the worry is that far too many people are carrying on as normal and this will most certainly lead to a lot of them requiring treatment in hospital for Covid and leads me to worry hugely about the access to medical treatment this winter.
And really why should that vunerable person who has taken care of their health as best as they possibly could and followed guidance to avoid getting covid to protect the NHS, why should that person have to suffer because so many other people choose to be irresponsble thinking they are invincible, it won't happen to them, but then they do end up really ill and requiring hospital treatment. This will lead to an overwhelmed NHS !

This folks is why even if you aren't vunerable. Everyone must do everything that they can to prevent it getting to that stage !

@Hotcuppatea

Fuck off OP

You can't answer the question can you? ;)

What question is that?

There is no way of not being selfish to someone somehow. I’m bored of people’s idiotic arguments about who is being most selfish. Yes, people should respect the guidelines and rules so that their effectiveness can be judged and the level of disruption to ALL people’s lives be kept to a minimum. However, the less wealthy a society, the less sense it makes to protect the elderly and vulnerable, not all of whom want special protection at any cost, at the vast expense of the young, fit and healthy and the economy, though, and all countries are rapidly becoming less wealthy. Some kind of balance is required, not crass, simplistic arguments. We are all at risk from covid 19 one way or the other, whether by being unlucky enough to get cancer or be run over in the middle of the pandemic, by being one of the people made very ill or killed by covid 19, or losing our livelihoods, or being trapped indoors in a violent household, or missing out on our education, or being unable to see those who make our lives meaningful. There is NO way of removing all the risks, and the vulnerable are not more important than everyone else.

I know op. The weird thing is the people I know who seem to shun masks and do what the hell they like, look pretty overweight and unhealthy unsavoury as it is. They are at higher risk of catching it and being in hospital. They don't know they're bloody vulnerable.

My gp friend had a moment and said she hoped they got it and died at home. She is stressed beyond belief. She then apologised. 😆 I got it though.

@SoUtterlyGroundDown yes you're right. The government opened up too much at once and then seemed surprised that figures went up, this includes Scottish government as well.

I should have said in my post that perhaps the least worst course of action is to try to do what was originally stated - control the curve so the NHS can cope.

This would mean accepting a rate of hospitalisations and deaths, and switching taps on and off. I believe this is what the government is trying to do, but appears to have no courage in their convictions.

So shut pubs at 10pm now.Close non essential things such as gyms ( I joined one recently and social distancing appears to be an unknown concept amongst the attendees), actually check on bars and hotels - I'm away at the minute and at the hotel last night there was a party of about 20 middle aged gentlemen, sat at separate tables of 6 but clearly all together in one big group.

I'd like us all to be able to do what we want, but I do recognise there is a trade off and government simply needs to accept that if the holy grail is keeping positive test numbers low, then bits of the economy need to take a further hit. I don't like that idea either, but the alternative is stagnation followed by another brutal lockdown. I've been out quite a lot, but now that numbers are rising again, I'm going to cut back as I would hate anything to impact DSs ability to go to school.

Importantly get someone competent in to sort out testing.

Well I’ve spent the last week in a sea side town with work and it was rammed with the disabled and elderly on holiday and days out.
There were old folks in our hotel not wearing masks, sitting drinking at the bar in groups.
We saw a coach load pull up at a fish and chip shop.

Are young people not allowed lectures at university so this group can do as they please?

OP is right. It's disgraceful how people are behaving.

@PinkLegoBrick

I agree OP. MN is horrible sometimes. I have seen many times on here people saying we should "take the hit of some COVID collateral" and yes, that actually was a real post. Things like "oh they were old anyway and would probably have died soon - it's more important my child can go on play dates". I sometimes feel I have stumbled into some kind of Nazi wormhole where the elderly, sick and BAME are left to take their chances so that the privileged, white, middle class, middle aged don't have even the slightest inconvenience to their comfy lifestyle. People should think of others before themselves. Especially the more vulnerable in society. Death is it. The end.

What's wrong with people? It's borderline sociopathic tbh.

Well a lot of the vulnerable are vulnerable due to lifestyle choices. Obesity is one of the biggest risk factors for example. My mum is in the shielding category due to lung disease because she's smoked her whole life. Obviously there are people who are vulnerable through no fault of their own also.
I am living my normal life pretty much, I don't really go out socialising, just the odd lunch date with friends. I'm most likely to catch and spread covid at work due to the nature of my job making social distancing impossible. Perhaps we should all stop working but then no one would receive health care as there'd be no tax money to pay for it.
I'm happy to stick to rules that make sense but I won't for example stop my 12 Yr old playing with his friends after school, the same friends he's in a class with all day and whom train together 2 nights a week. According to the rules he can see his friends from 8.30-3.30pm at school and again at 6pm for training but he's not supposed to see more than 1 of them between 3.30pm and 6pm . Makes no sense so no won't be enforcing that.

@HelloMissus it's worse than that for Uni students. They were forced to pay their accommodation fees, but get online lectures and are told not to socialise . Feels like being able to defer the accommodation and keep them at home might have been a more sensible option although will cost something.
But yes they will go and then be blamed for not wanting to act like monks for a disease that will not kill or seriously harm them.

carry on as normal and not follow social distancing etc and take the risk, would you forgo the right to hospital treatment if you became unwell with covid

This about summarises my working life, so no.

And no anyway, clearly. I put far more into the NHS than I take out, and despite the clapping I don't think that it's covered itself with glory recently, bearing in mind the massive cuts in general treatment.

So if I catch Covid because I dare to go to a restaurant and sit within two fucking metres of another human being then yes, I will take treatment from the NHS if needed.

@BabyLlamaZen

I know op. The weird thing is the people I know who seem to shun masks and do what the hell they like, look pretty overweight and unhealthy unsavoury as it is. They are at higher risk of catching it and being in hospital. They don't know they're bloody vulnerable.

My gp friend had a moment and said she hoped they got it and died at home. She is stressed beyond belief. She then apologised. 😆 I got it though.

Wow. What a thoroughly unpleasant post. Fat people are too stupid to know that they're at higher risk and they deserve to die?

And how long have you been this smug and sanctimonious? Just since Covid or has it always been this way?

I would happily carry on as normal. No, I wouldn't forgo hospital treatment if I needed it but as a healthy 30 year old white woman the odds of that are minute so it's not really a concern to me.

We are all going to die one day OP. If it's not covid, it's cancer, car accident or old age. The sooner you come to terms with that the better. If I avoided everything that might possibly make me ill or kill me, I would never get out of bed (which incidentally can also kill you and make you ill!).

@Hotcuppatea oh don't be ridiculous. Don't twist the post. Again you're just trying to avoid the point. 🙄

I find it interesting that the 'back to normal for our mental health/the economy' group often cite the very low case/death rate.

While cases/death rate stays small there isn't really an issue.

Would they concede that if, let's say hypothetically:
*if it wasn't 70 people in 100,000 who had it, but 7,000 people
*someone they know - a friend, neighbour, relative dies from covid, and a couple of people from their street have gone off in ambulances
*there are images in the media of temporary morgues and queues of ambulances outside hospitals etc
*news stories about employers not being willing or able to force staff to work of potential repercussions from employees being out at risk.

That their mental health may suffer, and they may not feel like going out to spend money in the economy as often?

Or would none of that deter you from going out for lunch, a browse round the shops, a session at the gym?

I'd love things to be normal, but unless everyone continues to feel confident going out and about doing their thing I don't see how it would feel normal.

This is such a straw man non-argument. Do you also think that smokers, alcoholics and the obese should forego medical treatment?

What about all the women deliberately getting pregnant during a pandemic.
MN is full of them.
Is that okay - deliberately placing the NHS under strain, deliberately putting yourself and your unborn child at extra risk?

Agree with @rookiemere I understand we needed to ‘flatterN the curve’ but lockdown merely suppressed the virus and kicked the can down the road. Until autumn and flu season. Great time for a second peak.

Given we never had a hope of eradicating this virus as we acted too late initially. Would it have been better to have opened up sooner. Got kids back in school in May when we were all going in to summer with strong immune systems, when the hospitals were quieter and we could have dealt better with increases in cases then? No let’s pile everyone back in one go in September.

We’ve just pushed the inevitable to autumn and winter and because it’s flu season more people will die. And NHS workers will be more overwhelmed. When all the COVID wards were empty all summer.

Have all vulnerable people really taken care of their health? They may have with regards to not catching Covid, but I suspect many are vulnerable due to poor choices anyway. This will be unpopular! How many are obese? How many ate and were fed crap? And don't exercise? Obviously not all of the vulnerable, but I suspect a good proportion haven't maximised their good health. And also, I think we need to accept our chances of dying. I heard someone speaking on the radio a couple of days ago, who was outraged at those not following the rule of six as she wanted her mother to be protected from Covid. Her mother is late 80s! Does she not know that her mother will die at some point soon anyway? Why should those who want to live their lives not do so? I think it is wrong. I want to live my life and would expect medical care if there was capacity, but if there is no capacity then I accept not having medical care.

Would I forgo treatment if I caught covid (not that I'm likely to need it)? yes if it meant my dad could have treatment for his cancer. Do I SD with my family? No not when my sister is a mess because her MH has tanked in the last 2 weeks and she needs a hug. So yes I do want to carry on as normal because right now my family needs as much "normal" as it can get.

The first person Who commented on this thread @Walkaround summed it up quite well ,

This pandemic isn’t just a case of all the low risk people choosing to be irresponsible and all the vulnerable people doing the right thing by staying in doors , I don’t think anyone can make that accusation and it be true , there are a lot of people going against Covid rules and not staying in doors ,including those who are low risk and those who are vulnerable , I understand your frustration OP but I don’t think the Covid situation is black and white as that

I've actually thought that a lot of MN are pretty privileged in saying yes I think it's the right thing to do to bunk down and hibernate for the winter until weve sorted covid. From the standpoint that they either dont need to work, or can comfortably wfh, order shopping online etc ignoring the huge section of people who actually need to leave their house/use public transport to go to work. including those working in food services/utilities/supermarkets/warehouses etc that allow them the luxury of staying in

Or the ones that say we should "just" close gyms, pubs, restaurants, softplay etc. Fine. Sorted. All the people that work there will be fine living off air for the next however long.

@Hilleni I’m not sure how to but it’s in the coronavirus topic and it’s called NHSers how are we feeling (or something similar)

@Hilleni www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/4026357-nhsers-how-are-we-doing-feeling-calm-before-the-storm