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Covid

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We have a right to education, a right to personal liberty, a right to family time, or we did before Covid.

276 replies

Treesofwood · 16/09/2020 21:44

But not any more. So how do we decide when some people's rights (including right to life) mean that others lose their rights. There have always been people who could get very sick and even die if they were to catch anyone of a number of viruses that circulate every year. No one suggested everyone should give up their right to personal liberty to prevent that. There have always been people who are killed on the roads every year. No one suggested that non essential car journeys should be banned to reduce or prevent this. Why are people with cancer's lives seen as less worth saving than those who might catch Covid? Why are people OK with this? How can the government make it illegal for me to see my parents?

OP posts:
Treesofwood · 17/09/2020 19:10

So it appears that there is a court case planned to challenge the covid bill, but apparently one (or more) of the government's team of 11 are on holiday so it's going to be delayed.

OP posts:
Treesofwood · 17/09/2020 19:16

@diplodocusinermine What do you mean stir things up? Ask questions? Discuss the impact of bizarre changes in policy and planning? Job losses, loneliness, suicide. Were you hoping I was going to say I wanted people to "wake up"?
This is a discussion forum about Coronavirus. I'm discussing it.

OP posts:
diplodocusinermine · 18/09/2020 06:46

Treesofwood - you keep banging on about people's rights and freedoms. TBH you have no idea. We are being asked to wear a mask for short periods of time and social distance. Our children are in school, we can go to pubs and restaurants. We can see our families. Stop with the conspiracy theories. If everyone just knuckled down, did the bare minimum we are being asked to do, had a care for other people, stopped with the hyperbole, we might get through this without another 50K excess deaths. I doubt it though, because some people are so insistent that OUR FREEDOMS (bawled a la braveheart) are being removed and we should be rioting in the streets.

Don't get me wrong, I think our government at the moment is a shower of shite who couldn't organise their way out of a paper bag, but the countries who do appear to be tackling this issue well demand an awful lot more compliance from their citizens than we appear to be prepared or even able to give. We as a country are not pulling together and this pandemic has rather shown us up.

Have a read of this thread. Might make you pause.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/4026357-nhsers-how-are-we-doing-feeling-calm-before-the-storm

MadameBlobby · 18/09/2020 07:25

[quote diplodocusinermine]Treesofwood - you keep banging on about people's rights and freedoms. TBH you have no idea. We are being asked to wear a mask for short periods of time and social distance. Our children are in school, we can go to pubs and restaurants. We can see our families. Stop with the conspiracy theories. If everyone just knuckled down, did the bare minimum we are being asked to do, had a care for other people, stopped with the hyperbole, we might get through this without another 50K excess deaths. I doubt it though, because some people are so insistent that OUR FREEDOMS (bawled a la braveheart) are being removed and we should be rioting in the streets.

Don't get me wrong, I think our government at the moment is a shower of shite who couldn't organise their way out of a paper bag, but the countries who do appear to be tackling this issue well demand an awful lot more compliance from their citizens than we appear to be prepared or even able to give. We as a country are not pulling together and this pandemic has rather shown us up.

Have a read of this thread. Might make you pause.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/4026357-nhsers-how-are-we-doing-feeling-calm-before-the-storm[/quote]
Thing is though, most people have stuck to the rules, levels of compliance with lockdown were very high. And we still got 40k deaths. The problem here isn’t the people its the government and the virus itself

Mintjulia · 18/09/2020 09:20

Well said @diplodocusinermine

knittingaddict · 18/09/2020 09:42

Totally agree

Of course you do PremierInn.

PremierInn · 18/09/2020 10:12

?

HelloMissus · 18/09/2020 10:19

‘Banging on’ about the rule of law?
Sorry but that’s like JRM’s ‘carping’ comment.

Erosions of any personal freedoms or increases in emergency powers need to be continuously scrutinised.
All of history tells us this.
We can’t just allow the government to run rough shod. I mean jury trials are being quietly erased. But you know...unusual times.

diplodocusinermine · 18/09/2020 11:40

Madameblobby, people did comply with the strict lockdown between March and June and cases went down commensurately. People seem to be complying much less with local lockdowns - Cummings effect? Who knows? We obviously can't continue with the severe lockdowns of earlier in the year (although I think many were surprised at the numbers who worked all the way through), but perhaps if everyone made a few small adjustments we could keep the numbers low and stable.

Hellomissus, legislators are working really hard to ensure jury trials proceed asap in a safe way for everyone involved, but thanks for the comparison to JRM Grin. Maybe have a look at some of the op's other threads detailing all the freedoms we have lost and the conspiracies behind it.

As I said, I have no faith in the higher eschelons of Boris' inner circle but I do think we need to beware the conspiracies.

HelloMissus · 18/09/2020 12:37

diplo I don’t know the OP at all.
But in a way it should nt matter, because we do need to keep discussing things I feel.
I hate the idea that the people are policing the people, so anyone raising concerns over the rule of law is just shut down because - Covid.
That’s what governments like this shower would love, wouldn’t they?

MagpieSong · 18/09/2020 12:53

There have always been people who could get very sick and even die if they were to catch anyone of a number of viruses that circulate every year. No one suggested everyone should give up their right to personal liberty to prevent that.

It isn't just people who are vulnerable. The reality is, we aren't practised in treating Covid-19 and, as it is newly spreading in humans, everyone is at risk -- including you and your parents. Giving up your liberty is to protect yourself too, but I think it's a shame if you can't show empathy for those who need extra protection atm.

There have always been people who are killed on the roads every year. No one suggested that non essential car journeys should be banned to reduce or prevent this.

We have restrictions on who can drive, including restrictions around age, drivers proven to be dangerous who've had a license revoked, some MH problems, some physical health problems etc. We also have continously improved safety to protect people. You are asked to stick to a speed limit, not drive under the influence etc. Those ARE restrictions on complete liberty (where you could drive wherever on the road with no limit, no belts, no airbag, no child seat at any age, even if you were having seizures 8 times an hour).

Why are people with cancer's lives seen as less worth saving than those who might catch Covid?

There are difficulties around this topic. However, part of the planning around cancer treatments were to not expose patients already at risk to Covid-19 or damage their immune system (using chemo) at a time when they are very likely to need that immune system.

Why are people OK with this?

Because sometimes these things happen and difficult times crop up. I don't find it particularly awful to follow a few rules for the time period Covid-19 is putting everyone at risk. I've gone through an amount of serious trauma in my life -- and wearing a mask and staying at home don't come anywhere near those experiences. I'm happy to contribute to slowing spread by a year or two with stricter isolation regulations, though I miss friends. I don't support the way it's been handled by the Gov and have raised this where I felt appropriate. I also recognise I have no place to moan at all comparatively to many, in fact I'm very lucky to be in the position I am in. Although we have lost an older, much loved family member and couldn't see them or attend the funeral (distance and number restrictions, no remote connection was available), and that was very sad, in most ways otherwise we've been very lucky. I focus on trying to do the best I can, adding in activities I can and so on. We camped out in the garden over the summer (aware it's not possible for everyone), I set up treasure hunts and cinema nights at home (rain), went for nice big woodland walks etc. I find the best way to be resilient is to try and break negative thought patterns through distraction and focus on positive things you can do. If you acknowledge negative thoughts, but don't dwell on them, it can really help. Mindfulness can be useful. If you can't break out of negative thought patterns and worry the whole situation is affecting you seriously, try and access help. It is difficult at the moment, but there are routes outside of GPs (charities as well as private for those who can't pay) that can sometimes give really good advice/coping strategies.

How can the government make it illegal for me to see my parents?

Because it's for a short period of time in the grand scheme of things. It also depends where you/your parents are, how many are in your family etc. There are some options, though they don't and can't suit everyone. Technically, your parents could move in with you and you'd see them then. Yes, it's frustrating and sad, but we're all in the same boat. This isn't a usual situation. You could give your parents Covid-19 and one or both could die, that would (one would assume) be very difficult to deal with if you knew you were probably to blame. There are no easy answers as the whole thing is complex, but without some restrictions there's no protection. It's important to remember that catching Covid-19 would also take away your liberty, possibly in a far more damaging way.

Namenic · 18/09/2020 14:04

MadameBlobby - you need a very large proportion of people to obey the rules to reduce spread to manageable number. It is currently not enough.

Govt can choose to enforce rules with various different strengthS of penalty and increase policing of rules - like it does with traffic offences. It can also choose to provide support packages to encourage compliance - including rationing, food delivery.

MarshaBradyo · 18/09/2020 14:10

Op it’s an interesting question.

But are you ready to forgo availability of healthcare in the future to have the freedom now? (Not sure if healthcare is a right)

How about when the right to education becomes less possible if we don’t curtail now?

If you balance your own rights now and future does it make you think differently?

CrunchyCarrot · 18/09/2020 14:17

@Treesofwood - you really need to read the NHS workers thread on here. It's very sobering reading, and I think it illustrates exactly why we have the responsibility as a society to protect others by complying with the temporary restrictions in place. It's clear the NHS and its dedicated staff have suffered greatly over the past few months and may do so again over the next few. They have sacrificed a lot in order to help those who have fallen ill. The more people refuse to follow reasonable restrictions the worse it's going to be.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/4026357-nhsers-how-are-we-doing-feeling-calm-before-the-storm

PremierInn · 18/09/2020 14:19

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

hoping4onlychild · 18/09/2020 14:30

@PremierInn that's very harsh. My DhH's grandfather is 91 and is very lucid. He also has his own car and often drives us out for outings.

It's understandable people don't want their older relatives to die. I am also sick of all the covid restrictions but the government has little choice in the matter. I also wish they could figure out a way to curb infections while still allowing us to lead normal lives but it's not an easy balance.

PremierInn · 18/09/2020 16:08

I don't know why it was deleted. It's the literal fact that the highest death rate is the over 80s and dementia is the highest risk factor. It is the most frequently recorded underlying cause of death after covid. (There's also research into a genetic link to genes causing dementia so it could be, for example, that those younger who are more susceptible to covid have that gene)

PremierInn · 18/09/2020 16:13

Death is also a fact of life and is pretty conclusively linked to increasing age.

Thisismytimetoshine · 18/09/2020 16:15

There have been some really weird deletions lately. Do MNHQ actually read the reported posts, or is being reported enough for an automatic deletion? Dodgy moderation...

Aridane · 18/09/2020 16:31

I haven't seen what's been deleted. Is it some of the more offensive ageist / disablist / 'othering' of the vulnerable posts?

PremierInn · 18/09/2020 16:38

God knows. I think I pointed out that covid kills the over 80s with dementia. It's not me killing them, its the nasty disablist ageist virus.

PremierInn · 18/09/2020 16:40

Maybe that will get deleted too. It's just statistics you know.

TheSeedsOfADream · 18/09/2020 17:04

Give over with your faux naivety. You know exactly what you wrote and it was repulsive.

PremierInn · 18/09/2020 17:15

I doubt it. I expect it was something about covid overwhelmingly killing the over 80s with dementia. Which it does. Of course, deleting my comment makes it easy doesnt it to throw around 'repulsive' accusations. It's a virus. It kills the elderly and those with dementia are at the highest risk. Fact not prejudice or ageist/disablist etcetc

PremierInn · 18/09/2020 17:18

In fact I doubt you even read it, I don't see any comments from you in that time frame. Enjoy the baseless accusations etc

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