Hospitalisations and Intensive Care Figures are rising.

[Nellodee]

People keep saying that although cases are rising, hospitalisations remain low. I don't believe this is true. We need to stop pretending that we can do nothing and everything will turn out fine. Oh, and I'm not being a doom monger, I am sounding the fire alarm. I fucking can't wait to be wrong.

This is from the Guardian:

The daily total for Covid patients being admitted to hospital in England has now passed 150. On 13 September, the most recent day for which a figure is available, it was 153. The previous day it was 143. Only a week ago the numbers were in double figures. The total has not been as high as 150 since early July.

The total number of coronavirus patients in hospital in England has now reached 866. That is the figure for 15 September, up from 782 the previous day. It has not been as high as this since late July.

The number of hospital patients in England receiving mechanical ventilation has now passed 100 again. Today’s figure is 101. It has not been this high since late July.

Unless we get a vaccine or effective treatment rolled out quickly I think every country is going to end up with the same deaths they would have done regardless of measures. It’s just how spread out they are.

One reason deaths might be higher is if the NHS becomes overwhelmed and has to turn people away. In practice this has already happened with huge numbers of non-covid patients being turned away which will cause a lot of deaths. So the lower the number of covid patients per month, the better for everyone.

Plus the current method is going to cause a backlash of anger from the young and who can blame them

Personally I’m beginning to hope there is some kickback. Younger people have been remarkably compliant and uncomplaining so far, but they have been thrown under the bus time and time again with this, Brexit, climate change, university tuition fees, astronomical house prices, decreasing social mobility and the rest.

Older generations seem depressingly ready to pull up the drawbridge behind them and claim it’ll all be fine because young people are ‘adaptable’ and need to develop ‘resilience’ anyway.

@notevenat20

Unless we get a vaccine or effective treatment rolled out quickly I think every country is going to end up with the same deaths they would have done regardless of measures. It’s just how spread out they are.

One reason deaths might be higher is if the NHS becomes overwhelmed and has to turn people away. In practice this has already happened with huge numbers of non-covid patients being turned away which will cause a lot of deaths. So the lower the number of covid patients per month, the better for everyone.

This.

@QuentinWinters

But the result of what you are proposing is that the virus will circulate until herd immunity or effective vaccine. Well yes. Its a pandemic virus we have no immunity to, because its new. There is no way to get rid of it now. What were you thinking should happen?

That response was to Mme Blobby because she said she wasn't advocating going for herd immunity.

Tempsperdu

Older generations seem depressingly ready to pull up the drawbridge behind them and claim it’ll all be fine because young people are ‘adaptable’ and need to develop ‘resilience’ anyway.

What a load of shit. I’m 57, my ds is 26, I’ve never said or thought anything like that. His generation have been shafted good and proper by governments, not by ‘the older generation’ . I’m appalled at what has happened to their generation as are most parents l would imagine.

Nice ignorant ageist comment there🙄

@MadameBlobby

I’m vulnerable myself, still doesn’t mean I think the world should stop to prevent me getting ill/dying of Covid. Deaths at all are of course sad but the price to wider society needs to be looked at too.

You don’t think about the price to society of the alternative to restrictions?

What about the price of restrictions in terms of health, economy and society @MyPersona?

I share your concern OP and yes, it's like being back in February.

What I find most frustrating is the number of people who still think the only weapon in our arsenal is lockdown - so either we employ lockdown measures or we let the virus sweep through.

The central strategy has to be testing, contact tracing and isolation.

Right now, none of those things are working properly and that's incredibly alarming with cases, and now hospitalisations rising. It's like we've learned nothing.

Children and young people deserve better than this and Zoom University for the sake of a virus that is largely killing their grandparents’ generation. Sad as that is it’s not worth sacrificing the life chances of the young for. Who those of us in middle age will need to pay our pensions and look after us when the time comes.

MadameBlobby This type of attitude really irritates me. It cuts the middle out of what civilisation means: caring for our elders while bringing up our young. We do both at the same time - we don't choose one over the other. Your last sentence, in fact, shows that you know this.

And also killing their parents generation. Would they want that? I don’t think they would.

@TheClaws

Children and young people deserve better than this and Zoom University for the sake of a virus that is largely killing their grandparents’ generation. Sad as that is it’s not worth sacrificing the life chances of the young for. Who those of us in middle age will need to pay our pensions and look after us when the time comes.

MadameBlobby This type of attitude really irritates me. It cuts the middle out of what civilisation means: caring for our elders while bringing up our young. We do both at the same time - we don't choose one over the other. Your last sentence, in fact, shows that you know this.

But we have chosen one over the other. We've chosen (rightly or wrongly) that the needs of the elderly are more important than the needs of children

Would that not be the lives rather than the needs of the elderly? In what will probably be a temporary situation?

@Cinderellashoes

You are looking at data and numbers. I have experience of hospitals and most nurses are if the opinion that the virus isn’t as deadly as before. Patients are just less sick. I can’t back it up with numbers and data but that’s what I’ve seen.

Hardly surprising because the most vulnerable would have been protecting themselves rather than going abroad on holidays, or to the pub, or socialising in large groups. It's the less vulnerable who've been doing those things and catching covid. Trouble is that the less vulnerable will be coming into contact with the vulnerable as time passes, so despite the vulnerable doing their best, they can't protect themselves fully from their family, tradesmen, delivery drivers, etc etc.

Nice ignorant ageist comment there

And yet ageism is fine when it’s batting downwards - hence young people being scapegoated for the spread of the virus, despite many of them working in the low paid hospitality jobs that were serving the Eat Out to Help Out punters. Young people described on here and in the media in terms usually reserved for migrants - ‘swarms’ of them ‘flocking’ or ‘flooding’ into places. Students being described on her with barely concealed contempt by posters who profess to be teachers (I used to be one too, and I would never have described my students as they do).

Tourist attractions reopening tea rooms but not playgrounds. Children still being persona non grata in many shops. Toddler groups still not restarting unless they are expensive paid-for classes. Libraries allowing adults to browse but not children. Churches and community halls allowing activities for senior groups to resume, but not playgroups or children’s classes - the list goes on.

Yes, successive governments have consistently pandered to the Grey Vote and totally ignored young people - triple lock pensions anyone? - but I maintain that it’s also a deliberate choice on the part of some of those older people too. My own baby boomer parents and their friends all freely admit that they voted for Brexit despite knowing that it would have an adverse effect on their grandchild’s future prospects. Sorry but even ignoring Covid there are many older people, often the most privileged ones, who refuse to make a single concession that might benefit subsequent generations. And still it’s the youngsters who are the ‘selfish ones’.

@WhoWants2Know

Once you're actually in hospital, the "with/of Covid" is pretty much irrelevant.

I'm sure several hundred people didn't test positive for COVID weeks ago and then happen to get run over by buses this week

Exactly.

I was watching a Dr this morning saying if he had type 1 diabetes, went out for a walk and was attacked by a bear, got admitted to ITU due to the severity of his injuries, whilst there they struggled to control his blood sugars and he died, how many people would argue that he didn't die due to the bear attack?

Yet l am older and know no one like this. We are Thatcher’s children and we fucking hated here. All my friends, colleagues, family and acquaintances voted remain.

I’m a teacher, l never refer to students in deragatory terms.

I think the younger generation have been absolutely screwed by the government. It’s horrific. But l never voted for them.

‘ Sorry but even ignoring Covid there are many older people, often the most privileged ones, who refuse to make a single concession that might benefit subsequent generations. And still it’s the youngsters who are the ‘selfish ones’

Sorry, but the older people l know do not behave or think like this. None of them. You may have been unlucky with your parents, but imo wisdom comes with age. Anyone with any wisdom would not stand by and see young people shafted.

But we have chosen one over the other. We've chosen (rightly or wrongly) that the needs of the elderly are more important than the needs of children

User According to the Covid minimisers, COVID deaths occur primarily in the elderly. COVID chose.

There seems to be a ‘thing’ that older people are to blame for everything.

I worked all my life.
I voted Labour all my life
I have children who contribute to society
I have no money
I don’t have a gold plated pension

Why is it all my fault?

Tourist attractions reopening tea rooms but not playgrounds. Children still being persona non grata in many shops. Toddler groups still not restarting unless they are expensive paid-for classes. Libraries allowing adults to browse but not children. Churches and community halls allowing activities for senior groups to resume, but not playgroups or children’s classes - the list goes on

@TempsPerdu thank you for acknowledging this. I feel like young children and their parents have been forgotten. Our toddler group has not started despite keep fit classes being allowed to start in the same hall and yes, all that is out there is expensive classes which, to be frank, I can’t afford and wouldn’t want to take DS to because I don’t want an overly structured environment, I just want a space for him to play with other toddlers. In Glasgow we’re not allowed to have playdates. No soft plays open. No access to the children’s section in the library. Interactive bits for young children all closed in our museums.

I just feel like there must be some sensible measures we can take instead of it all being closed. I suggested minimising the number of toys, everyone pitching in to clean and bringing our own snacks and drinks for the wee ones but the person who communicates with the church whose hall we use isn’t willing to try. We’re not even supposed to meet more than one other household in the park so it’s not like can organise outdoor activities. Winter is going to be very hard.

"According to the Covid minimisers, COVID deaths occur primarily in the elderly. COVID chose."

Isn't that true though? Deaths mainly are in the elderly so that's not being a "minimiser"

@TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince

Would that not be the lives rather than the needs of the elderly? In what will probably be a temporary situation?

The future lives of many children have been destroyed by our response to save the lives of the elderly. The most disadvantaged children have seen the gap between them and the richest widen massively and they will never be able to claw this difference back, not to mention the children killed by overwhelmed parents and treatment delays.

Like I said, it may turn out that that was the proportionate response to the virus. But I hate the idea if pretending children haven't suffered massively for the sake of adults. And "probably" temporary isn't good enough when kids have already lost 6 months of education and socialising.

Ok, open it all up and let it rip through society then.

It’s not about children/parents/oaps, it’s about a virus

@TheClaws

But we have chosen one over the other. We've chosen (rightly or wrongly) that the needs of the elderly are more important than the needs of children

User According to the Covid minimisers, COVID deaths occur primarily in the elderly. COVID chose.

Well no, covid didnt chose , we did. I'm not saying it was the wrong decision but no matter what way you look at it our actions have put the health of the elderly above the health of the young.

And l have children, l know how much they’ve suffered.

Thank you for acknowledging this. I feel like young children and their parents have been forgotten.

I have a two year old DD; I could hardly fail to notice! I’m one of the lucky ones; we can afford the (extortionate) private classes and as an ex-teacher I’m well placed to pick up on and mitigate some of the stuff that could impact on DD’s development. But I’m sadly awaiting the hand-wringing headlines in a few years’ time when the adverse effects of all this on children filter into schools and mental health services.