When do we end lockdowns and let people live a full life

[frasersmummy]

It's looking ever more likely more cities including Glasgow will go back into lockdown..

Mainly from what I can see to stop people meeting indoors

There has to come a point when mental health is as important as physical health.. Keeping loved ones apart does noones mental health any. Good

So where do we draw the line.. There has to be a point when lockdown is just wrong.

For me it's wrong now.. Enough of keeping friends and families apart

[quote roarfeckingroarr]@latticechaos that's exactly how government policy works - weighing up lives[/quote]
No, not in the way specified. It does not weight up one against the other in that way. If it did we would have euthanasia and houses reallocated to families with young children.

It won’t go on for years. Even the WHO have said they expect the pandemic to be over in under 2 years. We are already 6 months in and we will probably get out of it quicker than a lot of other countries. Even without a vaccine it won’t be a novel virus forever and probably won’t be so much of a threat.

@FromEden

We either deal with it properly - with temporary strict measures for one-two months, or it just drags on and on and on.

But what you've described in South Australia is a "temporary" lockdown dragging on and on, with only permanent residents allowed in. Do you think that can be maintained indefinitely? As soon as those measures are lifted, cases will be on the rise again. This has been shown everywhere. Lockdown does nothing but delay the process and causes a host of other issues into the bargain. The end result is still the same - we need to learn to live with this virus that same as we do with all the others that kill people every single year.

But it's NOT a lockdown. They're living normal lives. Places are open, offices are open, hospitals are running.

Closed borders isn't a lockdown. It's only very recent that we all started jetting off around the world multiple times. Everybody managed to still live everyday normal lives. It's not permanent and it's the price worth paying for a mostly otherwise back to normal. It's certainly the least damaging economically. The alternative, that we so far have chosen, of dragging things out over months and months has proven to be much worse for everyone. Worse for risk to lives, worse for risk of developing Long Covid (and therefore joining overnight membership of The Vulnerable), the risks to the economy, risks to mental health.

Absolutely yes you're right. We need to learn to live with the virus (temporarily, since vaccines are coming even if needed annually). Which means the slight inconvenience of border restrictions for just 6-12 months. Which presumably is a popular choice anyhow. The climate concern protests and school strikes last year were widely supported by governments, media, and large companies.

@latticechaos but that is exactly what has happened. We have decided that dying of Covid-19 is worse than dyinf of cancer. Thousands of people will die of treatable cancers because of Covid-19 and missed diagnosis and treatment.

We decided that saving lives from covid was more important than protecting women and children from abuse, more important than our children's mental health, more important than those with mental illness (who have seen already scant services cancelled).

but then they give the virus to those who weren't happy to attend, and they might be the ones who need medical help.

But equally, we won't be able to fund public services (including the NHS) if we don't support revenue generating industries to open up.

We're looking at a 20% drop in GDP as it is, with the potential of that being much deeper if we keep locking down. I don't think people really grasp what that means for public services and all the people who rely on them.

I agree and instead of focusing on the rise in infections – which appears to be the result of increased testing – we should be watching the death rate and that is far lower than it was before lockdown started in March. I found this piece from the BBC really explained it well and was very reassuring.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53951764

we should be watching the death rate and that is far lower than it was before lockdown started in March.

Absolutely. And hospitalisation rate.

I’m in Ireland. Case numbers have been rising for about seven weeks now. Yet just 1% of those infected are in hospital. The situation is very different to how it was in March.

So much me me me me.

So little thought for the wider community. And some dodgy ethical stuff thrown in.

So little thought for the wider community.

Cuts both ways. How much is the wider community giving a shit about people's destroyed mental health and finances? Precious little, apparently, just accused of being selfish. Works both ways.

TheKeatingFive This is the bit that really jumped out of that article for me. We've become so terrified of Covid yet we're going to lose far more friends and family and colleagues to cancer because of the delays to treatment.

If we look solely at those who died within 28 days of a positive coronavirus test, this has fallen by 99% from nearly 1,000 a day to, on average, less than 10.

That compares to an average of 30 men a day who die from prostate cancer, and 30 women from breast cancer. Neither of these figures is read out nightly on the TV news, unlike the statistics for cases and coronavirus deaths.

The death rate is (currently) lower because it's mainly affecting younger healthy people. (Whether they go on to develop permanent lung, heart, or brain damage is not yet known). Once it gets into the more vulnerable population, who will be exposed soon what with schools and universities reopening (and many staff and parents being clinically vulnerable), things might change. Hopefully not but there's a very real risk.

I'm a very cynical person. My own suspicion is the MPs and national media journalists have already been given the vaccine. Just like Andrew Lloyd Webber was. There's no evidence to support my view but it's certainly plausible.

I accept that there was a case for lockdown back in March - but we should be talking about NOW.

How do we get out of this? How do we move forward? Is there an ‘acceptable’ number of Covid deaths (I would argue that there is) and if so, what is it? At what point is the cure worse than the disease?

@Racoonworld

We cannot live like this until there is a vaccine, what if it takes years? I know some people on here seem to want to shut down the country until there is one, but have these people thought about how we pay for all the doctors, nurses, teachers, police and other public sector workers? We need the country back up and running properly to pay for it all, not businesses earning half amounts and millions in employed. People thinking the benefits system will help everyone, well if there is no money benefits will have to be cut, thresholds lowered. Yes there are people vulnerable to the virus, but what about other kinds of vulnerable? We can’t have millions living in the streets unable to provide for their families or people without access to healthcare and education. At some point other things will become more import and urgent than the virus.

The working population is not one kind of person.

"We need the country back up and running" what you see outside is a country up and running during a pandemic. You can't just omit the 'during a pandemic' part and pretend we can live more normally.

We are going into the Autumn now. Schools are opening whether some people like it or not. But that will not stop some closures from happening, since we cannot decide to ignore vulnerable teachers and parents. This will be our normal during a pandemic. Doesn't dismiss the fact that students and new graduates deserve better (the current situation is farcical).

Yes, it is truly devastating to see all of the job losses and my heart honestly goes out to families who are struggling. I'm on mat leave and I'm not even sure if I have a job to go back to. But forcing normality on a very diverse population will not change anything in the short term because people are going to make decisions based on their own personal circumstances. Allow them that right.

I'm a very cynical person. My own suspicion is the MPs and national media journalists have already been given the vaccine. Just like Andrew Lloyd Webber was. There's no evidence to support my view but it's certainly plausible.

😂

@FlySheMust

So much me me me me.

So little thought for the wider community. And some dodgy ethical stuff thrown in.

I find that there are many people on MN who only care about Covid and are completely incapable of seeing the bigger picture

The death rate is (currently) lower because it's mainly affecting younger healthy people. (Whether they go on to develop permanent lung, heart, or brain damage is not yet known). Once it gets into the more vulnerable population, who will be exposed soon what with schools and universities reopening (and many staff and parents being clinically vulnerable), things might change

That’s not true of Ireland actually.

Older people are getting infected and have been for weeks. There are clusters in nursing homes. Deaths are absolutely minimal.

No one really gave a shit about all the vulnerable people who died of flu every winter for decades did they?

All we need to do is follow the excellent example of NZ and Australia. Take firm action to nip it in the bud and then you're able to live life pretty normally, albeit with temporary closed borders.

I’m not convinced UK could have done the same. Due to timing (it hit them later) and as an international hub.

[quote BreathlessCommotion]@latticechaos but that is exactly what has happened. We have decided that dying of Covid-19 is worse than dyinf of cancer. Thousands of people will die of treatable cancers because of Covid-19 and missed diagnosis and treatment.

We decided that saving lives from covid was more important than protecting women and children from abuse, more important than our children's mental health, more important than those with mental illness (who have seen already scant services cancelled).[/quote]
You're right. Until we tackle covid, hospitals and other services can't operate normally. We'd hardly be able to treat cancer with covid spreading through staff and patients unchecked.

Mental health, housing, and domestic abuse services are another issue. They've all been desperately underfunded for years. Hence two women a week being killed pre Covid, and thousands of benefit 'reform' and homelessness related suicides.
The good news is I've seen a much increased concern for these issues since the pandemic. The posts here demonstrate that. Perhaps the increased awareness will finally bring about more funding and improved support. We can but hope.

Meanwhile NZ and AU's (and other places, including close to home Isle of Man) live mainly normal lives. Including concerts (someone upthread was missing these) and normal access to medical services (they both have better run and funded healthcare systems in the first place).

@SheepandCow

The death rate is (currently) lower because it's mainly affecting younger healthy people. (Whether they go on to develop permanent lung, heart, or brain damage is not yet known). Once it gets into the more vulnerable population, who will be exposed soon what with schools and universities reopening (and many staff and parents being clinically vulnerable), things might change. Hopefully not but there's a very real risk.

I'm a very cynical person. My own suspicion is the MPs and national media journalists have already been given the vaccine. Just like Andrew Lloyd Webber was. There's no evidence to support my view but it's certainly plausible.

Are you David Icke?

Most people wouldn't countenance causing the death of other people because of their own "mental health". Restrictions have eased. If we'd proper locked down and shut the borders we'd be in the same position as New Zealand. Because we've taken an appease everyone approach this is going to rumble on for ages. But thankfully most people don't want to live a "full life" at the expense of someone else's life.

@MaxNormal

So little thought for the wider community.

Cuts both ways. How much is the wider community giving a shit about people's destroyed mental health and finances? Precious little, apparently, just accused of being selfish. Works both ways.

There is a huge amount of financial support from central government for those furloughed. Money is being put into a lot of industries to prop them up. It's a tragedy that some have gone to the wall but that's the fault of the virus.

Those shielded and vulnerable also have poor mental health, it isn't confined to those unlikely to get very ill. So to discount them is selfish, frankly.

@SoManyActivities

No one really gave a shit about all the vulnerable people who died of flu every winter for decades did they?

There’s a vaccine for flu...

I realise that I might be accused of whataboutery, but our choices and lifestyle have caused other people's deaths every day.
There is vast global inequality. Due to our voting choices in the west, that is perpetuated so our lifestyle is being propped up by people, children, dying of malnutrition and diseases of poverty.
Pollution kills millions, and climate change is going to wreak utter havoc. We fly, we drive, we eat the airmiles-heavy food.

Every day we make choices that kill other human beings.

It seems that it's only since covid that we've developed a conscience around that though.

And yes we've got a vaccine for flu. Still doesn't stop people dying of it though, where's our lockdown for that?

@MarshaBradyo

All we need to do is follow the excellent example of NZ and Australia. Take firm action to nip it in the bud and then you're able to live life pretty normally, albeit with temporary closed borders.

I’m not convinced UK could have done the same. Due to timing (it hit them later) and as an international hub.

New York is an international hub and also got hit early. They took action. 1-2 months lockdown to get things under control. Longer period of closed state borders.

Of course it can be done. We're not helpless in being an international hub. It's entirely within our power to impose border restrictions. Under the circumstances, 6-12 months of mainly closed borders (with proper hotel quarantine for emergency travellers) is a small price to pay for a return to normality in the rest of our lives. As an island we have an advantage Europe doesn't. It's actually pretty easy for us to restrict borders. (And before anyone brings it up, I don't mean stopping freight or emergency travel).