Isn't it glaringly obvious that the biggest risk with reopening schools is to the parents?

[ScammedOrWhat]

I'm astounded and angry that the government's messaging around schools reopening has been deliberately spun to avoid mentioning that the biggest risk is surely that kids are going to spread it to their parents.

Chris Whitty's statement avoided saying this, but if you read between the lines it is clear. He DID NOT say reopening schools was "safe" as reported by the media. He said that the risk to children's health from catching Coronavirus at school was outweighed by the bigger risks to their wellbeing in not going to school.

The further reports today that children are at low risk from dying or becoming seriously ill also support that. But what they're NOT saying is that there is absolutely nothing to say children won't carry the virus home.

Children's parents and grandparents are at considerably increased risk once schools reopen.

I'm furious with the government for not being upfront about this. The messaging should be: - yes children need to go back to school, but parents need to be aware that they are more likely to be exposed and dial back their social mixing accordingly.

Children should be taught vigilance and good social distancing and hygiene principles. They should be taught what symptoms to look out for in themselves and their friends, and to report them immediately for rapid testing.

They could have spent the summer pushing these messages out while investing in santization equipment- extra sinks outside, hand santitizer stations, free mask provision etc for schools. So the message should be - your child is probably safe from getting ill but you the parents are not.

For anyone wondering what the latest estimate is for R, it is the range 0.9-1.1. See this rather ugly url www.gov.uk/guidance/the-r-number-in-the-uk#:~:text=The%20R%20number%20range%20for,as%20of%207%20August%202020.&text=The%20R%20number%20range%20for,as%20of%2031%20July%202020.&text=The%20R%20number%20range%20for,as%20of%2024%20July%202020.

Our school is back in Scotland and there are no staggered start and to be honest not much social distancing in playground !

@YouSetTheTone

But of course I don’t think those are representative! Are you all talking about some particular photograph? I’m talking about images I have seen of the different environment within schools as per the guidelines.

I don’t know the particular photo you describe here but it sounds like an image that exaggerates those same new health and safety procedures. It’s an advert for the new school system surely? Parents who aren’t intelligent enough to already realise that their children aren’t going to be in a class of four with a teacher in full PPE taking the child’s temperature as they arrive are going to quickly realise that’s not the case.... but they might hopefully have got the impression that schools have worked hard to minimise the risk of widespread outbreaks. They might then therefore return their child to school! This is a good thing!

Read BBc news. Every photo is a load of bollocks. There's a huge public campaign to complain.

Even today the photo on their sorry about leaked sage documents has a picture of a secondary school. Huge classroom. Forward facing desks and 3 students! One wearing a mask.

I mean why? It must have taken them more effort or find or set up this shite than use a stock photo which has been taken in a normal day!

@notevenat20

Should have added, bubbles are absolute bullshit in secondary.

Why do you say that? Remember the aim is to reduce the number of interactions not to eliminate them.

not much reduction though, clearly.

I understand people who say it isn't very safe but on balance I think it is better for kids to be in. I understand people who say it isn't very safe and I want more done.

I genuinely don't understand people saying they believe this nonsense means anything.

The measures are paltry, everyone from Johnson down knows it.

HTs everywhere working through their summer holiday having jones school through Easter and half terms and BH.

Except for where they did nothing at all in the holidays because their holiday is more precious than anything else on Earth :) (Hat tip to DCs primary)

@notevenat20

yes children need to go back to school, but parents need to be aware that they are more likely to be exposed and dial back their social mixing accordingly.

I couldn't agree more. But even more, it may be that everyone has to dial back their social mixing to allow children to go to school which is a harder message for non parents to swallow.

Only if they don't have a brain or a heart

People without children still have a vested interest in keeping friends, family & the general public safe and most will care about school staff too

Yes, some won't give a shit, but that applies to people that are parents as well!

@notevenat20

On a related note, I just discovered that DS (year 4 to be) won't be allowed to mix socially with other children outside his class at lunch or break. They have to eat a pack lunch in their classroom. That is a real shame and has made me sad :(

Why?

He'll have approx 30 kids to play with, which is a lot more than he'd have if they have close the school

It's a shame if their best friend is in another class, but they're attempting to keep the bubbles smaller and reduce the risk of transmission.

It's really not something to be 'sad' about.

@eurochick

"400 parents and grandparents waiting in the playground for their children to be brought out of infants. The playground is not big enough to Social distance."

Most schools seem to have implemented staggered drop off times. Year groups are 15 minutes apart at my daughter's school.

The problem with that is many families have children in two (or more) year groups, which us going to mean a lot of parents (and children) hanging around to with the subsequent children.

I think the better option is to have Set time family drop offs. Each child goes to their class - where the teacher then sets a low key activity until all the class are present.

As a non parent I'd happily go back to greater social restrictions if it means schools can be reopened more safely. I'm really concerned about the mental health impact on children of less socialisation, uncertainty of isolation etc.

The problem is the people that still think the government is acting in our best interests. "Boris is good because Rule Britannia! We'll never be slaves la la la". They're the ones who would be up in arms if they're told they can't go to Wetherspoons for a short while.

I don't know the science but do children harbour and spread viruses differently. My two kids were ill quite a bit throughout their primary years with various flu like viruses and sickness bugs and DH and I never caught anything from them despite being in very close proximity! If I ever catch anything it is from other adults.

I think staggering drop offs, SD within schools, bubbles etc are all good and worth trying. I know some schools are doing nothing... but some are.

But my point is that the messaging has been totally misleading. The risk to parents, and the subsequent risk of them spreading it around while doing the 'normal' mixing that they have become used to, has been completely downplayed to the point that I haven't heard it mentioned once on the BBC.

I know it's common sense - we've all worked it out. But many won't have done, and many will be of the mindset "Well the rules say I can visit my mother so why wouldn't I?. I worry for those families - many grandparents are going to suffer for this.

Surely it’s just common sense that parents may get infected via their children if there is an outbreak. Surely it’s common sense that parents have to ensure they abide by current guidelines and not use the can I just....., yes that’s fine use common sense approach to break guidelines so loved on MN

When children come home they can shower, change clothes, have those clothes washed straight away, wear masks to and from school, so contact really is limited

Teachers can’t, they may wear PPE, they may have windows open in the summer anyway, but they are with the kids for far longer

When children come home they can shower, change clothes, have those clothes washed straight away, wear masks to and from school, so contact really is limited

Teachers can’t, they may wear PPE, they may have windows open in the summer anyway, but they are with the kids for far longer

What can't teachers do? Shower and wash their clothes?

Yes but especially the school staff (teachers, ta’s etc) who will have no access to ppe and will not be able to socially distance from the children.

@TwizzledTurkey

Yes but especially the school staff (teachers, ta’s etc) who will have no access to ppe and will not be able to socially distance from the children.

I really feel for the teachers, and I'm angry for them too. But they're aware of the risks, they're aware they're being exposed so they'll probably be more careful with their other social mixing outside of school because of it. Just like all the keyworkers who worked throughout lockdown have done.

Parents on the other hand have been told that schools are safe, no risk to them, no need for them to do anything differently. And that is dangerous and completely false.

what they're NOT saying is that there is absolutely nothing to say children won't carry the virus home

Children's parents and grandparents are at considerably increased risk once schools reopen

Given that scientists pretty much agree on the fact that covid will never be eradicated, even if a vaccine was to be developed (which would never be 100% effective), but would continue to circulate in the population the same as all other coronaviruses do then what exactly do you propose we do? Do away with education all together because children may bring the virus home from school? Women to become 1950's housewives again by giving up work to look after/homeschool the children? Re-stablish the rich/poor divide with well off households paying out for private at home tutors whilst the poorer of us send our children to school on an ad-hoc basis with them doing some token cash-in-hand jobs to help the family out and keep them out of trouble during the day?

@PrivateD00r

That doesn't mean schools cannot do it though - all of my DC had temp checks every day this week and all teachers wore PPE. The kids wore masks in communal areas (UK but not England).

What size is your school?

How are those checks feasible in a large secondary of 1500-2000 students?

@pennylane83

what they're NOT saying is that there is absolutely nothing to say children won't carry the virus home

Children's parents and grandparents are at considerably increased risk once schools reopen

Given that scientists pretty much agree on the fact that covid will never be eradicated, even if a vaccine was to be developed (which would never be 100% effective), but would continue to circulate in the population the same as all other coronaviruses do then what exactly do you propose we do? Do away with education all together because children may bring the virus home from school? Women to become 1950's housewives again by giving up work to look after/homeschool the children? Re-stablish the rich/poor divide with well off households paying out for private at home tutors whilst the poorer of us send our children to school on an ad-hoc basis with them doing some token cash-in-hand jobs to help the family out and keep them out of trouble during the day?

Not at all. I think children should go back to school.

BUT the Government should be honest about the risks:

1. The risk to your children getting sick are low. The risk of them dying is very very low. They have said this in the media, which is fair.

1. That does not mean that your children can't catch it and spread it. They have NOT said this at all.

1. Parents must assume that their children are going to be exposed and potentially bring the virus home (see point 2 - this has not been made clear).

1. Parents and wider society should adapt their behaviour accordingly. So visits to grandparents, grandparents helping with childcare, adults mixing socially should all be reconsidered. This has NOT been communicated at all.

It's a trade off. We accept the increased risk with children going back to school, but we should adapt our behaviour to balance that risk. The government have not been giving that messaging at all.

Covid is a risk

So are lots of other things

Even if you catch Covid and even if are among the most vulnerable groups then the risk of becoming seriously ill or dying as a result is very, very small

The benefits to society - and to children especially - of getting schools up and running far outweighs the downsides

@notevenat20

yes children need to go back to school, but parents need to be aware that they are more likely to be exposed and dial back their social mixing accordingly.

I couldn't agree more. But even more, it may be that everyone has to dial back their social mixing to allow children to go to school which is a harder message for non parents to swallow.

It has to be everyone not just parents.

However it’s parents that seem to be doing more than the non parents around here.

Plenty of posts mirror this on MN re breaking guidelines as they see no point in following them now children are at school.

4. Parents and wider society should adapt their behaviour accordingly. So visits to grandparents, grandparents helping with childcare, adults mixing socially should all be reconsidered. This has NOT been communicated at all.

Of course it has been communicated. Everyone is well aware of the risks posed to older/high risk people and have been acting accordingly. Guidelines with regards the numbers of households mixing indoors/outdoors etc have not changed just because the schools are going back so the same precautions still stand.

What I do think is poor with regards the governments handling of the school return is how they have swept under the carpet the fact that many parents rely on the help of grandparents for school drop offs/pick ups and providing childcare until they return home from work.

Why couldn't they have put some thought into how this could be mitigated such as assisting schools in providing wrap around care (as not all provide it) or increased financial assistance for parents to cover childcare costs. With many schools shortening days (my childs school for instance has imposed a half day one day a week) parents are being expected to cover the additional financial burden of paying for childcare during the hours their children are supposed to be in school. An unfairness that is made harder because the school is actually receiving funding for your child to attend despite them being prevented from attending.

We've been back for 2 weeks in Scotland now; so the results will become obvious fairly soon now.

In my DC's primary, there are staggered start times, 1 parent dropping off, no PPE, can choose to wear masks & are in bubbles. Lots of hand washing, packed lunches in classroom, separate zones in playground, no school bags or changing for PE. No assemblies/events, nothing coming to/from school other than wipeable packed lunch bags.

They both had a sore throat/cold within a few days of being back!

We'll see what winter brings.....

The benefits to society - and to children especially - of getting schools up and running far outweighs the downsides

Yes I totally agree. But the government haven't been honest about the downsides. At all.

They've said there are no downsides. Schools are safe. Kids won't die. Crack on as normal. This is simply not true. Kids are relatively safe, but their parents and grandparents are not! (or teachers!)

I'm not suggesting they shouldn't reopen. But I think once again the Govt are treating the public as imbeciles. They think that if they admit to parents that they are of course more likely to become exposed, then people will refuse to send their children to school. But I'd much rather people were informed of the full facts and allowed to make their choices accordingly.

@pennylane83

4. Parents and wider society should adapt their behaviour accordingly. So visits to grandparents, grandparents helping with childcare, adults mixing socially should all be reconsidered. This has NOT been communicated at all.

Of course it has been communicated. Everyone is well aware of the risks posed to older/high risk people and have been acting accordingly. Guidelines with regards the numbers of households mixing indoors/outdoors etc have not changed just because the schools are going back so the same precautions still stand.

What I do think is poor with regards the governments handling of the school return is how they have swept under the carpet the fact that many parents rely on the help of grandparents for school drop offs/pick ups and providing childcare until they return home from work.

Why couldn't they have put some thought into how this could be mitigated such as assisting schools in providing wrap around care (as not all provide it) or increased financial assistance for parents to cover childcare costs. With many schools shortening days (my childs school for instance has imposed a half day one day a week) parents are being expected to cover the additional financial burden of paying for childcare during the hours their children are supposed to be in school. An unfairness that is made harder because the school is actually receiving funding for your child to attend despite them being prevented from attending.

It wasnt communicated - the BBC and newspaper headlines were "Schools are safe".

They should have been "Your kids are safe in schools - but be aware that they may spread it to you"

Completely agree with the rest of your post - all the pragmatic practical solutions the govt could have helped with... and they've done nothing.

I agree OP. The recent messages are all about the children. The risks may be low but there are still plenty of children who have been really ill and have lasting effects still from the virus.

The pictures seem to not mirror the reality of a full classroom, schools seem to have various different rules re bags, pe etc and there’s been no mention of virus going home with them and the risks to others.

There’s also been no mention of the staff in schools, just children.