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if so many people are about to be made redundant in the country, why can't experienced individuals be fast tracked as teachers?

387 replies

elmouno · 25/08/2020 16:40

Yes, I know teachers require different types of certification. But in these pressing times, if we have people being made redundant in every industry, why can't they be placed as extra teachers so we can get class sizes smaller? For example, if someone is already a scientist with work experience in biology, chemistry, etc surely they will be able to teach it at secondary level? Redundant IT engineers could teach what's relevant now in tech? HR or former project managers could teach English? Bankers teaching certain maths? I don't know but I think it is really important that we get more teachers (of course they would have to pass a background check). I mean perhaps we need to get more creative with curriculum and scrap the tests for now? Perhaps children who want to get into certain universities can take a SAT test like they do in America?

It just seems a shame that we have so many people being made redundant and we have such a pressing need to make more bubbles. Large bubbles imo, won't work. What will happen to keyworkers when their bubbles pop? It doesn't make sense to me. The only answer is to build more schools and have more teachers.

OP posts:
user1477391263 · 26/08/2020 01:49

I’ve been an English teacher for 20 years. Are you suggesting anyone who can read or write can teach my subject? Please some insult me.

I get this, but what is the alternative? The alternative is parents-trying-to-be-teachers-at-home via blended learning. Even less qualified than a fast-tracked teacher, AND in many cases trying to simultaneously WFH at something else, wrangle a toddler or baby, or both, at the same time as "teach."

year5teacher · 26/08/2020 07:06

Fair enough to have a recruitment drive and get people into SCITT or other types of “on the job” training where they have a mentor. If you fast track “experienced individuals” (with no classroom experience” into the role of qualified teacher then you’re basically saying you’re fine with the quality of teaching in this country going right down.

As loads of people have said, teaching really isn’t just about knowledge.

Piggywaspushed · 26/08/2020 07:11

I really don't get this . If Liz, the experienced teacher, is in Susan's room for the first few months when does Liz teach??

CountDuckulasKetchup · 26/08/2020 07:18

OP, I think your heart is in the right place. You're also right that there is money when they want to spend it. But as someone has already said, 'we' voted for a government that made no secret of not wanting to spend any money on education. So call me defeatist but I don't think they will spend a penny extra.

I'm mentoring a student teacher this year, and will receive no extra money. I'm lucky that I do get an extra hour a week off timetable for meeting with them, but this will be a fraction of the time needed. Once teacher absence starts in earnest I know I won't be getting it anyway as rarely cover will not exist this year. The reason everyone is so scathing is because we all remember how bad we were when we first started. And that's OK, because there's a qualified teacher in the room to help /advise / tell them to reteach that bit as no-one got it or in extreme cases what you taught them was wrong. Take that away and the training isn't training. The kids won't learn anything and the 'teacher ' will get stressed and give up. It's like teaching someone to drive by giving them the keys to a hgv and a manual and letting them practice on the motorway. As opposed to someone showing you, being with you in a car with dual controls and starting on a quiet backwater street.

A better idea would be to attract back all the thousands of teachers who've left. Reduce class sizes, give extra ppa time, give extra money for supporting aen students and pastoral, get rid of league tables and grades from ofsted. Centralised bank of quality resources which can be used but don't have to be. Will probably cost less, will work quicker and be more effective.

WhyAreWeHardOfThinking · 26/08/2020 07:27

OP, I have a trainee teacher or an NTQ every year. We don't get any extra time or paid for it. Most head teachers either wouldn't have the time or wouldn't have the skills as they haven't been teaching for years. On average, we should fail about 40% of them because they are shocking. They apply to teach for the money but cannot cope with criticism, student behaviour (being told to fuck off, assaulted, screamed at), parent behaviour (see previous) and absolute apathy for education. Nor can they handle to workload effectively, but they pass because of a teacher shortage. And, they can't teach or even communicate effectively (I'm science, so it is much more common for us).

And then, money. A Tory government will not invest in education, unless it is paying for their pals to build MATS that have head teachers paid over £140k who then employ unqualified teachers.

We need to make up for a decade of neglect, we need better teacher recruitment as all we are getting are people doing their training for a large bursary and then quiting (either linked to ability, expectations or burnout) and we really need better retention. I do my job because I love it, not because I earn less than my equally qualified friends from uni in science who work less hours a year than me for it, and not because I want to work in a school that I have bought silicon for to seal the gaps in the windows, the school where I have giant supplies of sanitary protection to give to students, food for the hungry ones and, last year, bought 29 pencil cases full of equipment for students who genuinely can't afford it.

The issues are so much bigger than getting someone to fit out a Toys 'r' Us for kids to 'go to school' in.

zaphodbeeble · 26/08/2020 07:58

Teaching Tefl on a gap year is no comparison to modern day teaching.

MrsHamlet · 26/08/2020 08:26

Most professions do have a non-degree route where you can take professional exams and learn on the job. Why can't teaching offer the same? There was talk of a degree level apprenticeship several years ago as a route into teaching. I'm not sure it ever went anywhere though because of the cost of setting up courses like that when there are already a number of routes into teaching.

You should get paid more and there should be more time allocated towards it. If there was a massive recruitment, then it would be good to have some more time dedicated towards it. As the senior mentor in my school, I do have time and money for my role. But the mentors below me get nothing. No time. No money. I only get my TLR because I am responsible for all Teaching and Learning training across the whole school. Everyone else has to squeeze it into their breaks and lunches and wherever they can. It's impossible to give them time because we never know exactly which subjects we'll have trainees in from one year to the next, and non contact time is expensive and disruptive to timetabling.

I'm sure they could be paired with an existing teacher, taught and given a small class of their own. Perhaps retention would be better for these people if they didn't have to manage 30 children at the moment, teacher training requires 120 days of in school training across the age and ability range. I'm secondary so that means trainees in every subject in my school have to be with some ks3 and some ks4. They can't have a small class of their own because that wouldn't allow them to meet the standards. If you come in via the Assessment Only route, the same standards apply - it's got to be full classes, across the age and ability range. That's in the rules for qualifying as a teacher.

It could be any empty modernised building. I have suggested retail, because many have closed. In one town, an extra school might mean the Toys R Us. In another village, it might be class held in an empty church. A furniture store, a large retail store, whatever can be adapted. That's true. But the guidance for reopening was very clear - this is not permitted, and won't be funded. It's not a lack of willingness from schools and their leaders stopping it; it's the government.
You're right about austerity - but schools can't do anything about that! Their hands are tied.

I'm sure someone will be around to tell me that's impossible because its different to what they're used to and different is a dirty word here. It's not impossible. But schools have been told not to do it and if they do, they won't get the money they spend back. So not impossible because it's different but impossible because we're not in a position to do it. Not least because of all the logistical issues aforementioned.

I think if I sent my 4 year old to be taught on a part time basis by Susan, a former flight attendant with childcare experience who had been trained by Liz, a teacher with years of experience who was with her in the room for the first few months, then I would be fine with that. In your example, Susan "owns" the class and Liz floats, but that's not how teacher training works. Susan has to be trained across the age and ability range so it's not her class, and Liz has to stay with her.
I've got a lot of experience in recruiting trainees, in training them, and in working with RQTs, and I've seen people come in from all areas of expertise at all stages of life. I'm not knocking anyone who wants to train - but training to be a teacher is not easy or quick. It has to be done well because if it isn't, it's the students who suffer. Yes, we need more teachers but the government recruitment drive isn't making the difference it should be, and that's with chucking vast sums of money at it.

Pugdoglife · 26/08/2020 08:26

[quote elmouno]@NiceGerbil yes, it was TEFL. It was not easy, but I think it helped that my class sizes were not as large as 30 students at once.

As far as the education, GCSEs have got to be scrapped. We already have a precedent where they have now been based on teacher's predictions. School should be on the basis of the grade that is given by a teacher and if a university is competitive enough to request a test for a specific subject, then there are ways of getting that done already. We might need to add more subjects as well in secondary, give students a chance to learn trades while they are there. If someone finds that they are destined to be an electrician, a carpenter, etc then we should allow them to take those kinds of subjects.[/quote]
We already did that in the days of grammar schools and secondary moderns.

BeingATwatItsABingThing · 26/08/2020 08:31

@WhyAreWeHardOfThinking

I couldn’t agree with your post more!

@elmouno, I am now an experienced teacher. I have been teaching for 4 years and I know that I have plenty of room to improve. My partner teacher has been teaching for 20 years, is the assistant head and head of Maths. She is amazing and I learn so much from her in our planning time and in the time we spend together after school. I think back to my training years and my NQT year and shudder at how shit I was.

I’m going on maternity leave this year and my class is being taught by a secondary school teacher (DT and ICT) and I’m concerned. Last year he taught Y2 and did a terrible job. This year, he’s taking over my Y5 class. His grasp of English is shocking and I know he won’t have the subject knowledge to teach it. He thinks teaching the written method for arithmetic is all children need and doesn’t seem to grasp that the children actually need to understand the concept too. My partner teacher is already pulling her hair out with him because he doesn’t listen. She is predicting a bad year. If it’s going to be that bad with a trained (but not in the right area), qualified teacher, how bad is it going to be bringing in unqualified teachers and expecting them to teach after a few months of ‘support’?!?

Mycatismadeofstringcheese · 26/08/2020 08:40

Grace for this example has a degree in History but has experience with children because she used to work in a soft play that has now permanently closed.

Yes because working at a soft play where under 7s are supervised by their parents in a fun play environment (average 1:2 ratio) is exactly like teaching a fully differentiated lesson on the Russian Revolution comparing eyewitness accounts to some disengaged teenagers at school (1:30 ratio)!

Pugdoglife · 26/08/2020 08:58

I'm not sure many people with history degrees are working for minimum wage in soft play centres either. The ones I go to seem mainly to be staffed by teenagers.

Also for the idea to work the schools would be teaching part time and having students at home part time, we could already do that very simply and teach half our class (so smaller numbers) for part of the week and the other half for the other part of the week and provide online work for while the students are at home. There wouldn't be extra work involved as you would be planning half the work but delivering it twice. There would be no extra cost, no need to magic up suitable candidates and no need to magic up suitable venues. But it's not what the government want.

Orchidsindoors · 26/08/2020 09:00

They did this after ww2. Shorter teacher training courses for anyone who wanted to do it. Turned out quite good by all accounts.

noblegiraffe · 26/08/2020 09:05

Turned out quite good by all accounts.

Oh well that’s me convinced.

Piggywaspushed · 26/08/2020 09:06

I think you mean well so I hope you weren't educated by them !

Lougle · 26/08/2020 09:08

In some schools, they are trying to work out how to restructure so that they can cut staffing costs, because the budget is going into deficit year in year.

Soontobe60 · 26/08/2020 09:12

My school has 7 classes of 30 kids per class. It has 8 classrooms. Where do you propose the kids go if the classes were to be split and an ex HR manager were brought in to teach them?

zaphodbeeble · 26/08/2020 09:12

We can’t afford glue sticks never mind extra staff and new buildings

BeingATwatItsABingThing · 26/08/2020 09:25

@Soontobe60

My school has 7 classes of 30 kids per class. It has 8 classrooms. Where do you propose the kids go if the classes were to be split and an ex HR manager were brought in to teach them?
Haven’t you heard? There is a warehouse they can use. It doesn’t have appropriate toilet or hand washing facilities or windows that open or interactive whiteboards or WiFi or outside space or desks but the OP says it will be fine and she’d be happy sending her child there.
Lougle · 26/08/2020 09:26

*year on year.

That is the reality of school funding. There is no money.

zaphodbeeble · 26/08/2020 09:39

Converting any space to a school, especially secondary, would require science labs, food tech rooms, art and DT rooms and equipment, specialist IT suites, music rooms and equipment, sports hall / gym and playing fields or Astro turf, not just knocking up a few partitions in an old warehouse. It would cost millions as you would effectively be building brand new schools. The government have been underfunding schools for years, they will not plough millions in something that would be seen as temporary.

lockyourbloodygate · 26/08/2020 09:46

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. And those who can, can't teach. Different skill sets.

wonkylegs · 26/08/2020 09:59

I'm a highly qualified professional with a fairly broad qualification and I've gone into schools to teach sessions on behalf of my professional body but I couldn't contemplate converting that to being a teacher - I think it takes not only broad skills but specific training and personality types to be a good teacher.
Being a good teacher doesn't just require an ability to regurgitate facts and be present.

Mycatismadeofstringcheese · 26/08/2020 10:29

@lockyourbloodygate

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. And those who can, can't teach. Different skill sets.
That has been doing the rounds for years and hearing “those who can’t, teach” still pisses me off. It completely devalues teaching as a calling and profession.

Yes I agree that it is different skill sets (having seen some training sessions written and delivered by those “who can and do” which we’re beyond appalling). I just hate the smugness of assuming that teachers are failed people who “can’t” rather than recognising that most have a drive to inspire and educate as the the thing they “do” and do well.

Just because good teachers make it look easy and natural, doesn’t mean it is. It means that good teachers have spent years perfecting their skills. I think that should be recognised rather than sneeringly dismissed.

(I’m not a teacher btw).

Mycatismadeofstringcheese · 26/08/2020 10:30

*were

mumsneedwine · 26/08/2020 10:32

I am happy to offer up my year 11s as a training class 😊

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