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Original poster

I think I agree with everything Chris Whitty said....

179 replies

sunseekin · 23/08/2020 09:10

It’s more what he didn’t say....

He talked about the total risks. I agree the total risk of keeping children off school is higher than the total risk of sending them in.

But I am disappointed that didn’t attempt to drill down at all into individual family‘s circumstances. Ideally all children should have the option of school, but the enforcement in a pandemic, especially with no regard to these individual circumstances is unethical and something that should never be allowed to happen again. School isn’t the best or safest place for all children at the moment.

He talked about the risks being low. I think the risk to individual children is low.

Not sure that I like how he switched from talking about the total risk to individual risk without highlighting it though. Maybe it’s the editing rather than Chris that’s being misleading. After all where there is individual risk and exponential growth things could change quickly.

Furthermore it appears that he didn’t seem to add timescales with regards schools, ie for how long does he expect the risk to remain low and how quickly does he expect the risk to grow?

He talked about harsh winters and being prepared for Covid-19 to cause problems and that they would look to close shops or pubs first if (if - come on!) opening schools raised the r value.

But he didn’t talk about forward planning for this; I can only presume that knee jerk reactions make more economic sense (so long as the nhs doesn’t start to get overwhelmed).

I really like Chris but I feel like someone has cherry picked statements from what he was trying to say. I would like to see him on television and wonder why that hasn’t been the case....

OP posts:
WhyNotMe40 · 23/08/2020 15:30

What can the teaching unions do though?

WhyNotMe40 · 23/08/2020 15:31

Teachers are already resigning in droves. As are support staff. And taking early retirement if possible.

SoloMummy · 23/08/2020 15:41

@SaltyAndFresh

Can posters who say that teachers can just leave, kindly fuck off?

What are we supposed to leave for? Are you going to fund our benefits?

Tbh your choices are no different to anyone else who is dissatisfied with their role and ts&cs. So on this one you really need to get over yourself and either work in the conditions set OR vote with your feet. Exactly the same as shop workers, nurses etc. I'm glad that I no longer teach, but your choices are no different to millions of other employees.
Appuskidu · 23/08/2020 15:43

I'm glad that I no longer teach, but your choices are no different to millions of other employees.

The difference is that the government guidance for workplaces doesn’t apply in schools, so whilst other members of the workforce are entitled to adequate mitigation of risk, school staff don’t seem to be.

SoloMummy · 23/08/2020 15:47

@WhyNotMe40

Teachers are already resigning in droves. As are support staff. And taking early retirement if possible.
Where's your stats to back this up? I spent a couple of decades in schools and there were always threats of resignations, yet very few really materialise above average levels. Hts in a poll stating 25% considered resigning is just that - thought about losing their very comfortable income and cushty holiday allowance plus decent pension. THOUGHT ABOUT.
WhyNotMe40 · 23/08/2020 15:55

I'm not sure about published stats, but at my kids school 3 TAs have resigned, and are also not being replaced, and one teacher has taken early retirement. At my school I'm resigning at half term (was going to at Easter but got persuaded to stay), 2 members of my department have taken early retirement and I know about 3 other resignations. 2 are to do MLMs!!
Amongst my friends at other local schools, I'm hearing similar stories.

WhyNotMe40 · 23/08/2020 15:56

These are people who are not doing the usual moving on to other school thing btw. People leaving due to the Covid risk.

MarshaBradyo · 23/08/2020 15:57

Whyme did they resign at Easter or do you mean now, leaving at Christmas?

WhyNotMe40 · 23/08/2020 16:01

Some at Easter (teachers). Support staff have different conditions so I only knew about those by the week before the end of term - we had an informal SD send off, but when chatting they were open about their reasons. Then due to that I chatted to friends in other schools and found the same sort of situation.

Mistressiggi · 23/08/2020 16:05

@Appuskidu

I'm glad that I no longer teach, but your choices are no different to millions of other employees.

The difference is that the government guidance for workplaces doesn’t apply in schools, so whilst other members of the workforce are entitled to adequate mitigation of risk, school staff don’t seem to be.

And that is an enormous difference
SoloMummy · 23/08/2020 16:15

@WhyNotMe40

I'm not sure about published stats, but at my kids school 3 TAs have resigned, and are also not being replaced, and one teacher has taken early retirement. At my school I'm resigning at half term (was going to at Easter but got persuaded to stay), 2 members of my department have taken early retirement and I know about 3 other resignations. 2 are to do MLMs!! Amongst my friends at other local schools, I'm hearing similar stories.
But 10-20% loss isn't counted as outside of the norm. Lsas predominantly have young school age children, so have they moved on naturally to better paid roles? Likewise was the school experience /age heavy? In the schools I am currently involved in, there's one teacher who resigned to travel (irony with covid) and the other school none. However both of these two need to lose Lsas in the next year or two as financially they're unaffordable longer term and likewise both need to lose a teacher from next year when numbers reduce. So I think it's hard to state that teachers are leaving due to covid.
SoloMummy · 23/08/2020 16:16

@Appuskidu

I'm glad that I no longer teach, but your choices are no different to millions of other employees.

The difference is that the government guidance for workplaces doesn’t apply in schools, so whilst other members of the workforce are entitled to adequate mitigation of risk, school staff don’t seem to be.

And schools can put in extra measures but headteachers are CHOOSING NOT TO.
Piggywaspushed · 23/08/2020 16:20

Such as?

SoloMummy · 23/08/2020 18:20

@Piggywaspushed

Such as?
Utilising other areas to reduce class sizes. Encourage use of masks. Part time timetables to allow for reduced class sizes. Use of community halls etc. PROPER online learning.
Piggywaspushed · 23/08/2020 18:31

Eh???

The headteachers are NOT choosing not to do those things. The DFE guidance specifically prohibits or strongly advises against ALL of those things. The very things unions are calling for as a Plan B. Or even a better Plan A.

SaltyAndFresh · 23/08/2020 19:19

@Molofololo

I just watched his statement and found it infuriating and patronising. It’s like he is responding to people who are insisting it is not safe for children to be in school at all. But very few people are saying they don’t want children to be in school at all. I think everyone accepts that most children would benefit from some consistent schooling. But there are other options available than just open everything up and tell everyone to wash their hands more. There are so many other mitigating strategies that could be taken. Why are they so readily dismissed.
I think a great number of posters on Mumsnet would benefit from reading this post repeatedly until it sinks in.
SaltyAndFresh · 23/08/2020 19:25

@Nat6999

The policy of if you don't like it leave is common in the Civil Service, why aren't teaching unions jumping in to fight this? If teachers resign in droves or go of long term sick schools aren't going to be able to operate properly, never mind if they have to close due to outbreaks.
It's not coming from schools, its coming from Us4Ourselves Us4Them, who say that any teacher who expresses a concern is hysterical and should leave because their pupils would be better off without them. They're a disgrace to decency. Of course, at this point teachers are contractually obliged to serve a full term before they can leave anyway.
NotAKaren · 23/08/2020 19:27

People have become obsessed with making every situation 100% Covid risk free and that just not possible. Teachers say that other workplaces have more protection but if you think a bit of hand sanitiser at the door and a sign saying wash your hands in a busy workplace where lots of people take public transport and younger staff spend the weekend partying and ignore social distancing is protection from COVID then they are really mistaken.

SaltyAndFresh · 23/08/2020 19:31

Tbh your choices are no different to anyone else who is dissatisfied with their role and ts&cs. So on this one you really need to get over yourself and either work in the conditions set OR vote with your feet. Exactly the same as shop workers, nurses etc.

I'm not leaving because I'm dissatisfied with being told to work in more dangerous conditions than all of the above because I can't socially distance, have no PPE and am confined in a poorly ventilated room with 300 students a week @SoloMummy. I won't. Instead I will work on continuing to demanding that this government provides mitigation for the risk. To my mind that's blended learning (Us4Ourselves klaxon) but I'm willing to try PPE before that.

Valenciaoranges · 23/08/2020 19:36

@onedayinthefuture I work in very big independent school. Unqualified teachers are very very rare. You may find an odd PHD graduate who does their PGCE on the job, but that is about as far as it goes.

SaltyAndFresh · 23/08/2020 19:39

@NotAKaren

People have become obsessed with making every situation 100% Covid risk free and that just not possible. Teachers say that other workplaces have more protection but if you think a bit of hand sanitiser at the door and a sign saying wash your hands in a busy workplace where lots of people take public transport and younger staff spend the weekend partying and ignore social distancing is protection from COVID then they are really mistaken.
Simply not true.
Morfin · 23/08/2020 19:52

I think I might actually scream. Head teachers have no choice. They are tied by gov guidelines.

I work in the private sector, I manage risk control, I am responsible for staff safety. If I sent staff into the same working situation as teachers are being sent I would at best be sacked, at worst be charged with corporate manslaughter. I have a duty of care to those that work for me, I also have a duty of care for service users. There is no other legal working environment that follows the rules expected for teachers. Health and safety are already threatening to prosecute the large non covid secure factories.

WhyNotMe40 · 23/08/2020 19:58

Thank you Morfin.

I think people find it easy to forget that teachers are human, and employees, and deserve the same respect and decent treatment that all employees deserve.

SaltyAndFresh · 23/08/2020 20:01

Yes, thank you Morfin.

NotAKaren · 23/08/2020 20:07

All employees deserve respect along with decent pay and proper working conditions but that isn't necessarily the reality of many of today's workplaces.