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Original poster

I think I agree with everything Chris Whitty said....

179 replies

sunseekin · 23/08/2020 09:10

It’s more what he didn’t say....

He talked about the total risks. I agree the total risk of keeping children off school is higher than the total risk of sending them in.

But I am disappointed that didn’t attempt to drill down at all into individual family‘s circumstances. Ideally all children should have the option of school, but the enforcement in a pandemic, especially with no regard to these individual circumstances is unethical and something that should never be allowed to happen again. School isn’t the best or safest place for all children at the moment.

He talked about the risks being low. I think the risk to individual children is low.

Not sure that I like how he switched from talking about the total risk to individual risk without highlighting it though. Maybe it’s the editing rather than Chris that’s being misleading. After all where there is individual risk and exponential growth things could change quickly.

Furthermore it appears that he didn’t seem to add timescales with regards schools, ie for how long does he expect the risk to remain low and how quickly does he expect the risk to grow?

He talked about harsh winters and being prepared for Covid-19 to cause problems and that they would look to close shops or pubs first if (if - come on!) opening schools raised the r value.

But he didn’t talk about forward planning for this; I can only presume that knee jerk reactions make more economic sense (so long as the nhs doesn’t start to get overwhelmed).

I really like Chris but I feel like someone has cherry picked statements from what he was trying to say. I would like to see him on television and wonder why that hasn’t been the case....

OP posts:
CoffeeandCroissant · 23/08/2020 12:30

I note that Harries and Van Tam are also signaturies to that advice

Yes, as are the CMO's and deputy CMO's of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
www.gov.uk/government/news/statement-from-the-uk-chief-medical-officers-on-schools-and-childcare-reopening

Original poster
sunseekin · 23/08/2020 12:35

None of the gaps have been filled by that statement and their confidence in a lot of the data seems very questionable. And yet we are still going for the chuck them all back in approach.

OP posts:
WhyNotMe40 · 23/08/2020 12:39

There's lots of hedging in that statement.

Piggywaspushed · 23/08/2020 12:40

They definitely do not like the term bubbles :

cohorting to reduce number of daily contacts

Shitfuckoh · 23/08/2020 12:40

Ah reading that contains a lot of 'May / May not's Confused

''Transmission of COVID-19 to children in schools does occur. On current evidence it is probably not a common route of transmission. It may be lower in primary age children than secondary age children.''

Probably not... May be... Confused

Piggywaspushed · 23/08/2020 12:43

hedging is the right word.

And as a teacher of 'older children' and a parent of a teenager, I am not reassured at all, Chris. HTH.

DBML · 23/08/2020 12:44

But if I have been in contact with someone with Covid and am told to self isolate for 14 days, it is my understanding that so long as I show no symptoms, the rest of my family carry on going out. So my children would continue going to school. If I didn’t send them to school when our household had no symptoms, then we could get fined...

And this is why Covid WILL get into schools and spread.

I’m not saying it’s your fault for following instructions btw. I’m just saying that there are too many gaps in the “planning”, that they’ll no doubt try to patch up when it’s too late.

Nat6999 · 23/08/2020 12:45

Does anyone else think that Chris Whitty has been paid to say what the government want him to say? Anyone can be given a title that sounds important, but don't have the real knowledge of what is needed. We are living with my 81 year old mum, I have been ill since last year with a neurological condition yet to be diagnosed, ds will be going back to school in less than two weeks time, as far as I can see the only measures his school have put in place are hand washing, entering school at 5 minute intervals for each bubble of over 300 pupils, staggered lunch & breaks & a one way system. At lesson changeover time all pupils will be moving around together, they will all travel to & from school together, how can this protect staff, pupils & their families? The school is already overcrowded, it was built for 1800 pupils but has 2180 pupils crammed in, there is no room to spread classrooms out, no spare rooms. Bugs already go round like wildfire, last year Norovirus & flu broke out in school, pupils & staff were going off regularly from October half term until Christmas, it doesn't fill anyone with confidence.

Enoughnowstop · 23/08/2020 12:47

Private schools take on plenty of new graduates who don't need teaching qualifications

You are so out of touch with what has happened to our education system. Unqualified teaching is taking place in both primary and secondary schools across the country. Chances are your primary child has a non qualified PE, music and MFL ‘specialist’, bought in cheaply to cover PPA and cover areas of the curriculum the teachers just don’t have time for. In secondary, shortages if MFL, maths and science mean your child is being taught by long lines of supply teachers and/or unqualified graduates.Teacher absence is covered by a ‘cover supervisor’ at a cost of £60 per day to the staff member (a qualified teacher in secondary on supply is double that).

The USP of private schools is that they are using qualified and experienced teachers. Not the opposite.

guilttripjourno · 23/08/2020 12:52

@Nat6999

Does anyone else think that Chris Whitty has been paid to say what the government want him to say? Anyone can be given a title that sounds important, but don't have the real knowledge of what is needed. We are living with my 81 year old mum, I have been ill since last year with a neurological condition yet to be diagnosed, ds will be going back to school in less than two weeks time, as far as I can see the only measures his school have put in place are hand washing, entering school at 5 minute intervals for each bubble of over 300 pupils, staggered lunch & breaks & a one way system. At lesson changeover time all pupils will be moving around together, they will all travel to & from school together, how can this protect staff, pupils & their families? The school is already overcrowded, it was built for 1800 pupils but has 2180 pupils crammed in, there is no room to spread classrooms out, no spare rooms. Bugs already go round like wildfire, last year Norovirus & flu broke out in school, pupils & staff were going off regularly from October half term until Christmas, it doesn't fill anyone with confidence.
This along with keeping his job. They dissolved the PHE, but not sack him as well.
MyPersona · 23/08/2020 12:55

Does anyone else think that Chris Whitty has been paid to say what the government want him to say?

No

Anyone can be given a title that sounds important, but don't have the real knowledge of what is needed

He’s the most senior physician in the UK. He’s an expert in epidemiology. It’s easy enough to read his qualifications and biography.

Piggywaspushed · 23/08/2020 13:00

I think it is wrong to cast aspersion on Whitty's scientific and medical credentials.

However, his appointment is a government appointment . It is disingenuous to say it isn't.

And what he is not an expert in is education. To my knowledge, he has met school leaders once, and he talked at them. He asked them no questions.

HipTightOnions · 23/08/2020 13:05

@Piggywaspushed

They definitely do not like the term bubbles :

cohorting to reduce number of daily contacts

I can’t see how “cohorting” (ugh) in groups of up to 400 will reduce the number of contacts. Yes, the pupils you squash up against in the corridor and queue for food beside will be in your year group rather than a different year group but how does that help?
Appuskidu · 23/08/2020 13:07

@Piggywaspushed

I think it is wrong to cast aspersion on Whitty's scientific and medical credentials.

However, his appointment is a government appointment . It is disingenuous to say it isn't.

And what he is not an expert in is education. To my knowledge, he has met school leaders once, and he talked at them. He asked them no questions.

I agree-he is on the government payroll. He is being paid to say certain things. If he refuses, I expect someone else would be put in his place who would say it.
HipTightOnions · 23/08/2020 13:11

I agree with Piggy that even what he did say wasn’t at all reassuring for parents and teachers of teenagers.

I’d also like to know where all the evidence is coming from, given that I don’t think schools have operated on the “all in full time no masks no SD” model anywhere for any length of time.

Redolent · 23/08/2020 13:15

@HipTightOnions

I agree with Piggy that even what he did say wasn’t at all reassuring for parents and teachers of teenagers.

I’d also like to know where all the evidence is coming from, given that I don’t think schools have operated on the “all in full time no masks no SD” model anywhere for any length of time.

The PHE report was produced at a time when barely any secondary school pupils were in. And we know that they transmit pretty much as well as adults. I don’t know how they’re concluding from that that schools are of low risk for transmission.
BadAbbot · 23/08/2020 13:43

Telling teachers to just leave their jobs isn’t just rude, it’s constructive dismissal.

The same is very possibly true of being forced to deregister under duress.

I wonder when the government will realise the scandal that is brewing over all this.

Open the schools ASAP but do it safely with distancing.

Original poster
sunseekin · 23/08/2020 14:01

@BadAbbot

Telling teachers to just leave their jobs isn’t just rude, it’s constructive dismissal.

The same is very possibly true of being forced to deregister under duress.

I wonder when the government will realise the scandal that is brewing over all this.

Open the schools ASAP but do it safely with distancing.

Very good points
OP posts:
Original poster
sunseekin · 23/08/2020 14:05

@HipTightOnions

I agree with Piggy that even what he did say wasn’t at all reassuring for parents and teachers of teenagers.

I’d also like to know where all the evidence is coming from, given that I don’t think schools have operated on the “all in full time no masks no SD” model anywhere for any length of time.

Don’t get me wrong, I haven’t been reassured in any sense of the word either. What he said was true but none of it reassuring. No evidence for transmission in schools to and from households or to teachers. No evidence doesn’t mean it can’t happen. They just want us all to take the risks, whatever they might be.
OP posts:
MarshaBradyo · 23/08/2020 14:09

I still trust him and think his statement is correct. The detriment to children is greater than the risk. I think this concerns him enough to make the statement.

So I don’t necessarily think he is undermining his professionalism.

Is there a transcript somewhere? I’m not sure if it was radio or print

Piggywaspushed · 23/08/2020 14:10

The link to the release is upthread marsha.

MarshaBradyo · 23/08/2020 14:12

Fab thanks, got it

Ellsbells12 · 23/08/2020 14:15

@mrshoho

I wish he had discussed the WHO's advice that all children over 12 should be wearing masks. How does this fit in with the UK plans for secondary schools and FE?
I don't believe anything the WHO says the bull they were coming out with in jan x
Molofololo · 23/08/2020 14:20

I just watched his statement and found it infuriating and patronising. It’s like he is responding to people who are insisting it is not safe for children to be in school at all. But very few people are saying they don’t want children to be in school at all. I think everyone accepts that most children would benefit from some consistent schooling. But there are other options available than just open everything up and tell everyone to wash their hands more. There are so many other mitigating strategies that could be taken. Why are they so readily dismissed.

Nat6999 · 23/08/2020 15:25

The policy of if you don't like it leave is common in the Civil Service, why aren't teaching unions jumping in to fight this? If teachers resign in droves or go of long term sick schools aren't going to be able to operate properly, never mind if they have to close due to outbreaks.

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