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New study shows the huge role children play in spreading Covid

246 replies

Worriedmum999 · 20/08/2020 08:55

Biggest study so far on the role of children in spreading Covid has come out today. Surely this has massive implications on children going back to school as normal. It’s very concerning. news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/08/looking-at-children-as-the-silent-spreaders-of-sars-cov-2/

OP posts:
notevenat20 · 21/08/2020 16:12

Not socialising is going back to the old rules. No one round your house etc

KOKOagainandagain · 21/08/2020 16:17

What if you had the entire maths class that had shared a classroom that afternoon round your house for a socially distanced BBQ - would that be OK?

KOKOagainandagain · 21/08/2020 16:29

Forgive my scepticism but school has never been about the disadvantaged however you describe them.

To pretend it is now is crass.

What about just opening up PRUs if that is the concern? Or reintegrating back into mainstream whilst bringing back those who have been illegally excluded or placed on part time tables?

Educational disadvantage was rife before Covid and will be exacerbated by current plans.

Bupkis · 21/08/2020 16:38

whilst I see lots of advocacy on here and other social media for Covid vulnerable/SEN children
I have not seen that.
EHCPs have been eroded, risk assessments for children have not been done, annual reviews have been held up, school transport situations for SEN children have not been considered, therapies have been missed, respite has not happened, reports of children with SEN having not had work differentiated for them or sent home at all, shielding children have gone from being barely considered in shielding updates to being removed from the shielding list in large swathes.
I understand how important it is to ensure there is support for children who are vulnerable at home (I work with many such children), but I think blanket fines for all families is not the best way to protect and support these children.

notevenat20 · 21/08/2020 16:45

What if you had the entire maths class that had shared a classroom that afternoon round your house for a socially distanced BBQ - would that be OK?

It's a nice question. But the point is that the overall infection rate is a function of overall infections. There are lots of ways infections happen. If we want to allow one route (schools) we may have to close another (going round to people's houses, touching, pubs etc.) Basically there is a budget which we can't spend twice. If we want to spend it on schools and that uses up our budget we can't spend it somewhere else.

Jenasaurus · 21/08/2020 16:52

@Cantaloupeisland

All we will have in secondary is year group bubbles. That's it. So James in year 10 picks up the virus somewhere. He goes into school where he can potentially have close contact with 200 other year 10s, up to 7 teachers plus 9 TAs during the day. James has 2 siblings in year 7 and 9 who he will have close contact with at home. If they pick up the virus from him they will take it to their respective bubbles. James hangs out with his mates on the way home, most of whom are in year 11. We really do need some better measures. The 2 weeks before we had to close in March were chaos and I don't want that again.
Agreed and dont forget James, Parents, who one works as a teacher in another year group and the other works in the pub....the lines of transmission go on and on.
Appuskidu · 21/08/2020 17:03

Basically there is a budget which we can't spend twice. If we want to spend it on schools and that uses up our budget we can't spend it somewhere else.

A shame really that there is no financial budget of any kind being put into schools to give them a fighting chance of staying open.

IceCreamSummer20 · 21/08/2020 17:06

I just wish the WHO or the ECDC (European Centre for disease control) - or anyone credible really could come up with a ‘top list’ for safety in schools. The CDC in the US are pretty good. It seems:

  • Good ventilation (why does no one want to talk about this? Honestly I do think that coats and jumpers on, windows open, is a pretty good idea)
  • No ‘breaking’ of the bubbles - even if it is a large class, little or no teachers are to go in and out of different classes, limited or no floating people.
  • bathrooms to be used at designated times by different classrooms, well ventilated and cleaned a few times a day.
  • school transport - bigger buses, masks
  • regular washing hands
  • hybrid of lessons. Online and at school.
  • reduced school times or mix to allow for smaller ‘bubbles’
  • no fines or penalties
  • one way systems
  • no singing or gym classes unless outside and 2 meters apart.

It would be so reassuring. I have always thought that the evidence is not strong enough to say children are NOT transmitters, even younger children, so we have to go with that. However I am for schools going back.

IceCreamSummer20 · 21/08/2020 17:09

@Bupkis

whilst I see lots of advocacy on here and other social media for Covid vulnerable/SEN children I have not seen that. EHCPs have been eroded, risk assessments for children have not been done, annual reviews have been held up, school transport situations for SEN children have not been considered, therapies have been missed, respite has not happened, reports of children with SEN having not had work differentiated for them or sent home at all, shielding children have gone from being barely considered in shielding updates to being removed from the shielding list in large swathes. I understand how important it is to ensure there is support for children who are vulnerable at home (I work with many such children), but I think blanket fines for all families is not the best way to protect and support these children.
I completely agree. I don’t see anything for SEN children and my child is one. I have no friends with SEN kids, nothing from the school except to say his teacher is taking a career break. No school transport. Nothing. I’m going to start a thread I think!
KOKOagainandagain · 21/08/2020 17:14

@notevenat20 - I don't think Covid got the memo or the text message that it had exceeded its budget!

I know there has been some confused messaging about but that's really not how viral replication works.

The only way an existing and prevalent virus can exceed its 'budget' is to have no contact with vulnerable potential hosts through isolation or immunity which blocks its replication. Social distancing and other non pharmacological measures reduce spread and viral load and therapeutics and preparing the terrain reduce effect.

Social and political strategies have to work with that objective reality. Anything else is magical thinking until we have data that shows that either all scientific knowledge of viral replication is wrong or does not fit in this instance.

lifeafter50 · 21/08/2020 17:15

That survey is based on 192 people between 0 and 22. In what planet is 22 considered a child?
Grin

randomsabreuse · 21/08/2020 17:19

How can you do anything other than year group bubbles with the existing options and sets?

Say 7 sets for English and Maths, possibly a couple of parallel sets, double/triple science (might correlate with maths sets to an extent), plus options blocks offered last year of eg French/German/Spanish (probably with sets) history/geography/RE (art/drama/DT/PE/music) and the "extras" block where you'd put second language, slower paced triple science, second humanity plus maybe a popular creative subject like DT or art (to allow 2 creative options). Plus you might have L2 BTECs.

How can you create a bubble without going back on options, limiting students' future choices for A-level through arbitrary assignment to 'options' based on maths and English sets (which might not be the same anyway).

It might be possible to have "stream" bubbles where streams are a thing, and before options/sets are a thing (y7/8) classes should be kept together where possible.

If Covid never gets into a bubble because people are distancing properly outside the bubble, it would be fine, which is why part time school concerns me - because it gives more time for out of bubble, unsupervised socialising...

My clever theory obviously falls down where public transport is a necessity...

ListeningQuietly · 21/08/2020 17:30

If Covid never gets into a bubble because people are distancing properly outside the bubble
Siblings at different schools ?
Public transport?
Parents at work?
The whole bubbles thing was though up by people without kids

randomsabreuse · 21/08/2020 17:39

@ListeningQuietly that is true. There are no true bubbles at all. But I can't see how part time school reduces exposure across bubbles because it's so dependent on where non-school time is spent!

Public transport is a big issue.

Parents' work should be "Covid safe". In Scotland non-essential offices are remaining closed.

orangeblosssom · 21/08/2020 18:00

www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3476(20)31023-4/fulltext

notevenat20 · 21/08/2020 18:09

@KeepOnKeepingOnAgainandAgain

I think my metaphor failed. What I meant by budget was the average number of infections per person. We can't afford for it be above 1. Every type of interaction (going to people's houses, pubs, restaurants, hairdresssrs, shops etc) adds something to this count. I hope that makes more sense now.

ohthegoats · 22/08/2020 10:32

I am worried that the primary will use it as an excuse to teach as little as possible

It's a shame you have a negative opinion of the school system. Maybe it's time to consider home schooling.

ohthegoats · 22/08/2020 10:36

But I can't see how part time school reduces exposure across bubbles

It allows for social distancing in classrooms and corridors
It allows for fewer links (15 families instead of 30)
It allows for this much talked about 'catchup' to happen more easily
It allows for 'personalities' who might break guidelines to be split to avoid egging each other on

Barbie222 · 22/08/2020 10:37

I am worried that the primary will use it as an excuse to teach as little as possible

Who will be worried when the results from part time schooling prove to be far better than before?

twinkletoesimnot · 22/08/2020 10:40

@randomsabreuse
Parents' work should be "Covid safe". In Scotland non-essential offices are remaining closed.

Unless their parents are teachers!

year5teacher · 22/08/2020 10:51

Ultimately I’ve given up.
I go back to work full time next Tuesday and I highly doubt the government are going to announce any more measures to keep staff and children safe before then.
I’ve said in multiple other threads that we really are solely reliant on increased cleaning which varies massively from school to school. A Tory MP (can’t remember which) said that as there will be no routine tests for children or staff, schools will be reliant on distancing and hygiene.

Well, what distancing? Primary should be ok hopefully although they’ll all be socialising outside of school and there’s so many siblings in different bubbles that really the “bubble of 30” is an illusion. But to pretend we have any real distancing to rely on is silly. It wasn’t even easy to distance from my bubble of 15 over lockdown so not sure how I’ll manage it with 30 whilst still actually teaching and supporting them properly.

So we rely on hygiene, which will obviously be hand washing, great for those (like me) who have sinks in their classrooms. Cleaning desks before lunch (they’ll probably be eating in class), then a thorough clean at the end of the day. Keep your windows open. That’s it.

At this point I’ve just given up worrying. I’m in an area with low cases and I’m healthy. I’m in a position where I’ll probably be fine. I’ll be careful of course! I just think that we can’t be surprised when schools end up closing again and children’s education is interrupted because the government have demanded full time school pretty much as normal (only changes that there’s no assembly etc).

I don’t know what the answer is because I want full time school as normal! I want to be in school full time, thank god at least I can teach key worker provision or something if schools do close. I really pray it all works fine but I just worry that not enough has been done to facilitate long term full time opening. Which is really a disservice to the children above anyone else.

notevenat20 · 22/08/2020 11:09

Who will be worried when the results from part time schooling prove to be far better than before?

A very good point! Someone should mention this to the teacher union .

notevenat20 · 22/08/2020 11:11

Its a shame you have a negative opinion of the school system. Maybe it's time to consider home schooling

You mean everyone who cares and wants things to be better should leave the state school system?

ChubbyPigeon · 22/08/2020 11:25

If we go into schools pretending children up to 18 cant spread the virus its going to end up being more disruptive for children. Your going to have random groups of children missing 2 weeks of education, random teachers going off

Schools and hairdressers are not the same. Hairdressers you have maybe 4 clients in at once, all can wash hands/wear masks, chairs wiped down between clients. Adults dont touch their mouth/dribble in the same way children do. Teenagers all bundling each other/kissing each other etc. Teenagers touch each other a lot, way more than adults.

Hospitals are not even the same, waiting rooms are socially distanced, clinic rooms are kept minimal to allow ease of wiping down. Everyone wearing masks, chairs/door handles etc. All wiped down constantly. Clinic rooms disinfected between each patient. Clinicians wearing PPE. Hand sanitising everywhere, our hospitals have put in additional sinks to allow handwashing plus a good supply of disposible masks

A ward has less people on it than a year group. And even then the staff are wearkng PPE, constant hand washing, proper cleaning beds between patients, no/limited visitors. A hospital has less mixing of people than a school, and a hospital is much better at infection control in general.

Does no one remember norovirus outbreaks in school when you were children? Once there was only 4 of us in the class because everyone got bloody noro. Even secondary children would be running out of assembly to vom etc. At least in hospitals you can isolate wards

Morfin · 22/08/2020 12:27

[quote randomsabreuse]@ListeningQuietly that is true. There are no true bubbles at all. But I can't see how part time school reduces exposure across bubbles because it's so dependent on where non-school time is spent!

Public transport is a big issue.

Parents' work should be "Covid safe". In Scotland non-essential offices are remaining closed.[/quote]
Part time school would allow for SD in school. SD would cut down on the amount of students an infected person came into contact with.