New study shows the huge role children play in spreading Covid

[Worriedmum999]

Biggest study so far on the role of children in spreading Covid has come out today. Surely this has massive implications on children going back to school as normal. It’s very concerning. news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/08/looking-at-children-as-the-silent-spreaders-of-sars-cov-2/

@Summersnearlyover
I know I'm wasting my breath....but I can't help myself posting on these school threads, even if it is like smacking myself in the face with a frying pan.
The upside is I get to read posts like yours and others that are in a similar position, and it makes me feel less alone.
The testing thing is something that really worries me (alongside...well, everything!) There is no chance we will be able to test ds, and his Drs agree it would be almost impossible and very traumatic....but if he has a cough (over the Winter this is very likely), will the school be able to insist on a test? If we say no, but self isolate...Will we be fined. Honestly it's a bloody nightmare.
Most of the special schools I know of are at least being very understanding with families and giving them options and flexibility. Unfortunately ds is in a special needs resource base in a mainstream school, and the head, who has little understanding of medical/complex needs, has been very specific about implementing fines.

He is medically vulnerable and has complex needs

I am sorry to hear this. But what did you do before covid? It sounds like going to school in general might be risky for him. There are lots of diseases going round schools at the best of times.

SEN schools should have different guidelines for a safe return than mainstream.

As an "open up the schools" person, this makes perfect sense.

@Bupkis you are definitely not alone, there are thousands of parents in our situation. If they can’t test, they can’t test, you will have to isolate, I don’t see how they could impose fines in your situation. It’s absolute madness. Nobody can insist you have your child tested.

I think the fact that you are attached to mainstream and your head has little understanding of SN is the problem, that in itself is also madness. Can you appeal to your sons teacher at all? I very much doubt you are the only parent that has huge concerns, are you in contact with other parents? Can you approach a local SEN school and see if they have any places, in your shoes I would move him if I could so he would be in a setting that was more sympathetic to parents concerns and to your child’s welfare.

@notevenat20 this shows so much ignorance it’s untrue! It’s actually laughable.

@notevenat20

Are you not worried about your child staying in school?

I worry about a lot of stuff but you have to balance your worries. I am more worried about them not going to school than going to school. Going to school is not a serious health risk to them. It's possible that schools opening will increase the general infection rate and if so, we (as I mentioned before) should close and restrict other things to get this down. Closing/restricting schools to get the general infection rate down should the last option after we have tried everything else.

Sorry I wasn't clear. I mean are you not worried that your child's schooling will be interrupted by closing of bubbles/schools or by having to isolate for lots of reasons not related to corona. I'm not worried about the risk to my children but I do think that the current plans risk mass school closures and that is definitely a risk to my children.

Sorry I wasn't clear. I mean are you not worried that your child's schooling will be interrupted by closing of bubbles/schools or by having to isolate for lots of reasons not related to corona.

Oh yes and I am worried that the primary will use it as an excuse to teach as little as possible and that any restrictions may harm DS's ability to make friends.

this shows so much ignorance it’s untrue! It’s actually laughable.

Which part?

@Summersnearlyover
I am in touch with the other parents, unfortunately this has come at the end of a long series of difficulties with school. It's pretty complicated! Ds is in yr 6, and we are at the 'waiting to see if LEA name special or mainstream' for secondary. It has been a long road to get here!

@notevenat20
There are many children with complex medical needs who are in mainstream schools, special schools...everywhere! Pre Covid I did what other parents of medically vulnerable children do - get vaccines where available, hope that other parents don't send in children who are very ill and spend an awful lot of time either at home with and ill child or in hospital dealing with the aftermath of viruses and infections. The difference here is that, until August, Drs have told us to keep ds home, because there is a pandemic.

The difference here is that, until August, Drs have told us to keep ds home, because there is a pandemic.

Hopefully the NHS won't shut down in the same way again and the medical advice can be more nuanced from here on.

I have every sympathy with the posters on here with vulnerable children. What I think the difficulty for the government is, are there are 2 types of vulnerable children and the fines situation doesn't work for both.

The vulnerable children discussed on this thread are medically vulnerable to COVID but in other ways they are not vulnerable. They clearly have awesome mums who advocate for them and make huge sacrifices for them and would do anything for their health and wellbeing.

The difficulty is the other group of vulnerable children who have no increased COVID risk but who are living in poor, abusive homes and without school have no-one looking out for them and limited prospects. The fining situation is unfortunately necessary to get those kids back in school. So their parents don't just think 'I can't be bothered to get up and do the school run today' with no risk of a fine so the children go without education and nurture and a hot meal that day. I worry about who is advocating for these children.

@notevenat20

He is medically vulnerable and has complex needs

I am sorry to hear this. But what did you do before covid? It sounds like going to school in general might be risky for him. There are lots of diseases going round schools at the best of times.

Oh please. Never understood how people got so annoyed with other people on the internet. I think my trigger is bullying.

Please just play nice, nobody is impressed and any valid point you may have (doubtful) is getting lost behind your nastiness.

[quote Summersnearlyover]@MaxNormal that old chestnut is getting a little tiresome. Most people want to keep their kids in school, nobody is shouting for them to stay closed, people want a sustainable solution for schools to safely open during the winter months instead of closing by October half term because so many staff are off sick. I don’t know why people can’t see this. Even if kids show few symptoms they will still be infectious and infect staff, if too many staff are off sick then schools will close and nobody wants that! Everybody back to normal won’t work.[/quote]
This this this.

It’s so frustrating that people keep repeating the same old boring statements without understanding that there is something more subtle going on than people wanting schools closed! People want schools open safely, that’s the whole point

@Mummabeary

I have every sympathy with the posters on here with vulnerable children. What I think the difficulty for the government is, are there are 2 types of vulnerable children and the fines situation doesn't work for both.

The vulnerable children discussed on this thread are medically vulnerable to COVID but in other ways they are not vulnerable. They clearly have awesome mums who advocate for them and make huge sacrifices for them and would do anything for their health and wellbeing.

The difficulty is the other group of vulnerable children who have no increased COVID risk but who are living in poor, abusive homes and without school have no-one looking out for them and limited prospects. The fining situation is unfortunately necessary to get those kids back in school. So their parents don't just think 'I can't be bothered to get up and do the school run today' with no risk of a fine so the children go without education and nurture and a hot meal that day. I worry about who is advocating for these children.

I know what you mean about the second group of vulnerable children. We definitely need advocates for them. But they can still phone in with temperatures, coughs etc if they don’t fancy it.

We need a sustainable education system for them. And less crowded classrooms.

I agree not enough is being done. No extra funding/staff has been given to schools yet.

The policy re fines is not going to do enough to protect them. If anything at all. We are kidding ourselves that the fine policy means the vulnerable children must be protected box is ticked. I think a lot of people would argue the proposals are likely to cause more harm than good.

That survey is based on 192 people between 0 and 22.
In what planet is 22 considered a child?

Please just play nice, nobody is impressed and any valid point you may have (doubtful) is getting lost behind your nastiness.

I feel misunderstood and am really sorry if anyone felt I was being nasty. The problem with text is that no one can tell how you are saying it.

That survey is based on 192 people between 0 and 22.
In what planet is 22 considered a child?

Exactly. And of course being 6 is very different from being 16.

It's not even clear that this study adequately demonstrates higher viral load in children: mobile.twitter.com/nicolamlow/status/1296550523798257665

"#SARSCoV2 in children and adults is important. There are interesting and unanswered questions about relative contributions to transmission. But please study, report and interpret carefully. As
@apsmunro says "We must do better. Too much is at stake and people are so scared."
mobile.twitter.com/nicolamlow/status/1296550541628145664

And as a previous poster on this thread has pointed out:

"I am particularly astonished by the comparison of childrens viral loads at THEIR PEAK (within 2 days of symptom) being compared to adults viral loads AFTER 7 DAYS

How could this possibly be a meaningful comparison?"
mobile.twitter.com/apsmunro/status/1296782241473929217 .

CoffeeandCroissant Where were you 8 pages ago?! :)

@Mummabeary it is far too simplistic to say there are 2 groups of vulnerability - medical needs and feckless parents.

Unless, of course, you are suggesting that DC who are autistic or ADHD etc are really 'fine' but have feckless parents?

What about socially vulnerable DC who may struggle greatly with new and illogical rules in school but with parents who advocate tirelessly for them? Maybe DC are really fine but parents are over-engaged - possibly MBP?

My son's issues were first flagged by his GP at 2 and he started school under the care of NHS speech and language. He did not get an EHCP (parental request) which guaranteed extra support at school until he was 9. This is par for the course. Campaigning for something for this long is also beyond the experience of most.

In the SEN world, parents who have concerns and raise them (and are dismissed - you will be told (eventually and when it's too late)) and who then advocate for their DC are considered a problem.

It's much easier if you are passive because then DC and/or your passivity can be blamed.

I understand that relative passivity was fine pre-Covid if you had NT DC - you just buy the kit, send them to school and 'oversee'. I understand you want to work and have your own life and don't want to be an unpaid advocate, with hundreds of hours of admin and the stress of responsibility. So did I and lots of SEN parents like me.

Maybe everything will turn out OK - maybe pessimistic predictions are wrong and erring on the side of optimism means everything will be fine. But do you have a Plan B? (People with blind faith and in denial rarely have a Plan B because this will jinx it.)

Plan B is to ban socialising. Plan C to close pubs etc etc

To be honest @Mummabeary, the umbrella term of 'vulnerable' for the purposes of accessing support via systems like the CAF, for children with additional needs and children needing social services input and looked after children and children 'on the radar' as being vulnerable at home....is problematic, in many ways beyond that of the Covid situation.

It does seem ridiculous to me though that the small handful of children in ds's school who have been in the shielding category, are being scooped up in the broader sweep (ie fines) which is deemed necessary to protect vulnerable children.

Boring down into the data and considering methodological issues of research has no impact on political decisions relating to the opening of schools with variable safety measures to control transmission worldwide in societies with variable rates of national and local transmission.

There is insufficient data to warrant any particular course of action. We seem to have high criteria for erring on the side of caution but the absence of evidence for caution is seen to be positive evidence for throwing caution to the wind. Because the moral argument of erring on the side of caution (protecting human life) is drowned out by the so called moral argument of protecting the economy.

The easing of proscribed lockdown has not led to hundreds of thousands of people simultaneously returning to social contact in overcrowded indoor spaces with no remit to PPE. Despite the moral duty argument.

But some people are magic - they don't get ill (and never will) and despite being infected are not contagious. Honest. Plus, some places are magic. Homes and weddings and funerals and parties are a hotbed of infections regardless of strict safety measures but schools are fine - no one knows why. So school child infected was probably infected at home and won't spread it at school and spread back into the community.

This same magic thinking was applied to care homes back in March when the same government assured us that it was very unlikely that anyone in a care home would be infected. Except it was one way - infection in but limited infection out given that residents don't live in the community.

@KeepOnKeepingOnAgainandAgain
You raise good points and I am sure I am being too simplistic with my two groups. As you rightly say there are many more situations. I suppose I just wanted to raise the point that, whilst I see lots of advocacy on here and other social media for Covid vulnerable/SEN children there understandably isn't the same for socially vulnerable children. And I feel that whatever solution is reached with regards school attendance and covid vulnerable/SEN kids (and I completely agree there should be a better solution than the current one) it absolutely must not be at any expense of the situation for the socially vulnerable kids who don't often have the same voice.

@notevenat20 - what do you actually mean by 'socialising'. Do you think the virus can differentiate along politically sanctioned/social norms?

The raison d'être of a virus is replication. Why then is it safe for 30 DC in an unventilated, small indoor space with no social distancing and no mask wearing to discuss Pythagorean theory in a maths class but not OK for 10 of the same individuals, on public transport, well distanced and wearing masks to discuss Cardi B's latest single?