Safe to reopen schools

[askmehowiknow]

Article from oxford professor summarising new data that it's safe for children to be in school. Great pre September reading!

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/18/children-covid-19-english-schools-virus-safe-reopening

[quote Iamnotthe1]@askmehowiknow
I'm just genuinely not understanding people who don't think children deserve/need to go back to school full time.

I actually prefer the full-time model to the part-time model, personally. I just genuinely can't understand why anyone wouldn't want to put every conceiveable measure in place to decrease the likelihood of as many children as possible needing, or being forced to have, more time away from school.[/quote]
It needs to be the full time model in the UK. Other countries with more SAHM, smaller class sizes, less inequality, differences in attitudes to school have I assume made flexi schooling work. In England it hasn't. And never will. We need to accept this and move on!

So we either build more schools/employ more teachers/allow smaller class sizes ( my dream for education always!) but not going to happen overnight.

Or we work with what we've got. I'd support temperature checks (pretty effective I reckon although no evidence). Some form of childcare facility for poorly kids if parents need to work (what/who/how). Keeping all kids with symptoms out of classroom. Community responsibility.

However face masks I would never support as they impair education and communication and social skills. Plus there's no conclusive evidence. And they're awful to wear (trust me!)

Kids need to get back to school. Teachers need to be leading on this

I see our secondary school kids in Scotland in face coverings by this time next week. One of my kids is exempt but the other one already takes a covering with him.

[quote askmehowiknow]@latticechaos

How much more data would you be happy with? Conclusive data would take years (if we ever get any- studies have a habit of disagreeing with each other)*

I'm not sure I was combative or hostile?
*
I'm just genuinely not understanding people who don't think children deserve/need to go back to school full time. [/quote]
Wtf at 'deserve'?

I can't understand people who don't think older teens deserve/need to go back to school in an environment/pattern where outbreaks are minimised so they and their teachers have the greatest possible chance of getting to Christmas without closures.

As to how much data I would be happy with - there is a big gap between 'none' and 'conclusive'. I just said I personally wish we had some. But this isn't especially linked to school.closures, just I personally like to understand things.

I have felt for a long time that blended learning in smaller groups would give most children the best sustainable option.

To add I have no issue with it if it might help stop transmission in school.

@latticechaos if you honestly think older children/teens don't deserve an education in school I'm dismayed

There is a demented fringe group who want them open at all costs with no safety measures at all for teachers and older pupils.

Here’s a handy checklist on how to spot them:

1. They will assume that anyone arguing for the safe re-opening of schools actually wants them to remain closed

2. They will suggest that any parent unhappy with the lack of mitigation measures deregister their child

3. They will suggest that any teacher unhappy with the lack of mitigation measures resign their job

4. They will slate teachers at any opportunity.

Stop trying to have a reasonable conversation with them! You are banging your head against a brick wall and having less fun!

It cannot be reasoned with, it can’t be bargained with, it doesn’t feel pity or remorse or fear.....and it absolutely will not stop. Ever. Until you are dead.

[quote askmehowiknow]@latticechaos if you honestly think older children/teens don't deserve an education in school I'm dismayed [/quote]
You are infuriating. Or maybe you can't read.

I want my kids in school. In small groups. With online learning in between.

Are those sentences easy enough for you to understand?

Don't be dismayed for my kids. They are doing bloody great!

I should add I want my kids in part time, in small.groups because I think they will end up with MORE time in school than if they go in full time then things go wrong.

@askmehowiknow

However face masks I would never support as they impair education and communication and social skills. Plus there's no conclusive evidence. And they're awful to wear (trust me!)

I would have to disagree with them impairing education. Based upon my experiences, I can't see how they would affect what I do to any significant degree unless I have a child who is hearing impaired and needs to lip read, in which case a windowed version could be used. I wouldn't have any concerns about volume (I've taught whole sessions at a level barely louder than a whisper) or clarity. Phonics is the only area that I can see masks affecting significantly and that doesn't exist in secondary settings anyway.

The evidence on this will never be conclusive that they help - it's still too new and there's too many biased pressure groups involved alongside an already existing bias in England against measures such as masks. But there are clear indications that they may help and that, if they do, it's to quite a significant degree. I guess I'm the sort of person who would rather take that measure on the possibility of it significantly helping. Although, with that, I'd have to say I think it should be in secondary schools and the final (maybe final two) years in primary rather than any further down.

Thankyou, @noblegiraffe for the perfect summing up of the Merciless School Thread Zombie.

@Bupkis

Thankyou, *@noblegiraffe* for the perfect summing up of the Merciless School Thread Zombie.

Italy has invested in hiring a huge number of temporary teachers and will be using museums etc for classes. This is all part of ensuring theirs 1m apart.

We could have done this. We could have done a lot of things.

Instead we just dictated business as usual.

It’s not good enough.

@noblegiraffe

There is a demented fringe group who want them open at all costs with no safety measures at all for teachers and older pupils.

Here’s a handy checklist on how to spot them:

1. They will assume that anyone arguing for the safe re-opening of schools actually wants them to remain closed

2. They will suggest that any parent unhappy with the lack of mitigation measures deregister their child

3. They will suggest that any teacher unhappy with the lack of mitigation measures resign their job

4. They will slate teachers at any opportunity.

Stop trying to have a reasonable conversation with them! You are banging your head against a brick wall and having less fun!

It cannot be reasoned with, it can’t be bargained with, it doesn’t feel pity or remorse or fear.....and it absolutely will not stop. Ever. Until you are dead.

You’re right. It’s like trying to play chess with a pigeon.

@Emmememe

Italy has invested in hiring a huge number of temporary teachers and will be using museums etc for classes. This is all part of ensuring theirs 1m apart.

We could have done this. We could have done a lot of things.

Instead we just dictated business as usual.

It’s not good enough.

See this just makes me

@noblegiraffe

There is a demented fringe group who want them open at all costs with no safety measures at all for teachers and older pupils.

Here’s a handy checklist on how to spot them:

1. They will assume that anyone arguing for the safe re-opening of schools actually wants them to remain closed

2. They will suggest that any parent unhappy with the lack of mitigation measures deregister their child

3. They will suggest that any teacher unhappy with the lack of mitigation measures resign their job

4. They will slate teachers at any opportunity.

Stop trying to have a reasonable conversation with them! You are banging your head against a brick wall and having less fun!

It cannot be reasoned with, it can’t be bargained with, it doesn’t feel pity or remorse or fear.....and it absolutely will not stop. Ever. Until you are dead.

I'll quote you because that was perfect and needs repeating.

@Emmememe

Italy has invested in hiring a huge number of temporary teachers and will be using museums etc for classes. This is all part of ensuring theirs 1m apart.

We could have done this. We could have done a lot of things.

Instead we just dictated business as usual.

It’s not good enough.

We could have done so much. We had 6 months. We did nothing sadly

It’s like trying to play chess with a pigeon

Both will indeed just shit all over the board

[quote Iamnotthe1]@askmehowiknow

However face masks I would never support as they impair education and communication and social skills. Plus there's no conclusive evidence. And they're awful to wear (trust me!)

I would have to disagree with them impairing education. Based upon my experiences, I can't see how they would affect what I do to any significant degree unless I have a child who is hearing impaired and needs to lip read, in which case a windowed version could be used. I wouldn't have any concerns about volume (I've taught whole sessions at a level barely louder than a whisper) or clarity. Phonics is the only area that I can see masks affecting significantly and that doesn't exist in secondary settings anyway.

The evidence on this will never be conclusive that they help - it's still too new and there's too many biased pressure groups involved alongside an already existing bias in England against measures such as masks. But there are clear indications that they may help and that, if they do, it's to quite a significant degree. I guess I'm the sort of person who would rather take that measure on the possibility of it significantly helping. Although, with that, I'd have to say I think it should be in secondary schools and the final (maybe final two) years in primary rather than any further down.[/quote]
What's your experience?

As far as I'm aware the windowed ones just steam up so are useless?

Who has been wearing face masks in your class? How do you know it's not impacting learning?

@askmehowiknow

What's your experience?
Who has been wearing face masks in your class? How do you know it is impacting learning?

Who has been wearing face masks in your class? How do you know it's not impacting learning?

Not who you were asking, but I do have experience of this so I’ll jump in.

I taught abroad where masks are very much normalised. Over winter, I’d say 80% of my class were wearing masks and learning a foreign language and they were fine. When I was wearing a mask too I had to talk louder (than normal) but given that they passed their exams. When students are used to them, they really don’t need to be an issue.

*but given that they passed their exams, it didn’t seem to be a barrier to comprehension.

@noblegiraffe @Emmememe @Bupkis @latticechaos

The thing is some people want to come across as all concerned and righteous and then make comments such as ‘teachers need to be leading on this’ with a smirky face. Showing a total lack of empathy and understanding that we have been open throughout for key worker children, delivering online lessons, spending ages sorting out CAGs, dealing with all the result chaos, and planning for 3 different return options.

Taking the lead? Some people are having a laugh. (Especially those who have shown no real interest in schools unless going in to complain about why their child was stuck next to the one who is naughty/stupid or SEN or whatever)

@TaxTheRatFarms

Who has been wearing face masks in your class? How do you know it's not impacting learning?

Not who you were asking, but I do have experience of this so I’ll jump in.

I taught abroad where masks are very much normalised. Over winter, I’d say 80% of my class were wearing masks and learning a foreign language and they were fine. When I was wearing a mask too I had to talk louder (than normal) but given that they passed their exams. When students are used to them, they really don’t need to be an issue.

Thanks. Very interesting. I literally cannot imagine as an adult learner. Learning a foreign language with face mask on teacher and student.

@askmehowiknow - lots of us are wearing masks now so we know how it feels. Thanks for your concern

@askmehowiknow

What's your experience?

As far as I'm aware the windowed ones just steam up so are useless?

Who has been wearing face masks in your class How do you know it's not impacting learning?

I mean my experience as an educator in general and my personal experience of communicating through masks as speaker and listener.

I did have a small number of children in my Year Six class who elected to wear masks and there was no noticeable impact on their learning or the way in which they communicated with other children. However, there's no evidence to say whether it would or wouldn't impact long term in English schools as we haven't tried it. Again, I'd typically say give them a go and let's see and adapt. We could use the evidence from other countries which have been using masks for a while with no real impact on learning but then one could always argue there's a cultural influence there.

I think one of the reasons that I feel this way is to do with how we, over time, are conditioned to feel about the children in our care. Everything that we do is so carefully risk assessed with as much risk as possible removed in every instance. I mean, the school printer is around 30 seconds from my room and nipping out to collect some printing would take around 2 minutes in total but I could never do that. My class would be alone for 2 minutes and that's not alright. That may be why you find so many teachers want further mitigations put in place: we are trained to remove risk from the children in our charge so it's only natural that we'd want to do everything possible to protect them.