Safe to reopen schools

[askmehowiknow]

Article from oxford professor summarising new data that it's safe for children to be in school. Great pre September reading!

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/18/children-covid-19-english-schools-virus-safe-reopening

To contribute an alternative perspective. I have a 4 year old and a 6 month old who was born at the start of the pandemic. By profession I am an academic researcher - evidence-based research is my day job. My 4 yo returned to nursery FT as always the moment they opened and this has been the best for all of us - he graduated yesterday. My 6 month old baby started in the same nursery last week as I returned to work. My 4 yo is going to reception this September. As a mother of very small children, indeed an infant, as an academic who deals in evidence led research, and as a citizen - it is unthinkable to me to keep them back . Spouse and I are taking great care with measures such as hygiene, exposure and distancing but beyond that we are living life on the understanding that this virus is here to stay for a while yet.

If there were vulnerabilities in the family then of course different conversations are needed. But when figures such as “20 kids died” are cited and more often than not equates to maternal/parental protective instinct it really does bother me both because of the mistaken risks perceived through de-contextualised and misinterpreted evidence and because it seems to convey that putting kids and ourselves in a bubble for the rest of the time this virus is around is the Best way to proceed

data from the pre-summer limited openings is not adequate. Many vulnerable families stayed away.

But there’s data about deaths from the period when Covid was at its peak in the UK (Easter weekend). This related to that month after Feb half term and pre lockdown when the virus was rampant in U.K. urban areas and kids and teachers were in school.

*believe many many children would be fine with 50/50 school/home. This would be more than most online providers give.

My children emailed about three questions betweens them whilst off.*

Mine emailed and got no answers or answers hours later. They’ve had barely any teaching with a teacher for 6 months.

@Trinketsfor20

I don't know if they all had pre existing conditions. At least some of them didn't.

Do children with pre existing conditions not matter now then ??

Teachers with pre existing conditions ??

Family members with pre existing conditions ??

I'm not asking for schools to remain closed indefinitely. They should open at least part time, with social distancing and masks encouraged. Those who choose to home school at this time shouldn't lose their school places, as they make it safer for everyone else. I'm being threatened with losing school places.

vulnerable children and families - no mention, the article continually refers to 'healthy children' yet 1 in 10 children have a vulnerable adult at home

There were 90,000 children classified as exceptionally vulnerable . Nice they'll be scattered randomly across schools, but if evenly distributed, that's 3 per school. Then you add on those who have a newly deshielded person in the household (recalling to shielding being an early action in new lockdowns, because the vulnerability hasn't gone away). And possibly those who are 'flu jab' vulnerable. And that's quite a lot of DC, and they're all being airbrushed out.

BTW, my DC will be returning. But I hope there will be focus on plans for good off-site learning because there is potential for burst bubbles, local lockdowns and individuals needing contact isolation (possibly more than once). And DC who have to be isolated should at least be educated.

@Trinketsfor20

I think the big issue is a 4yo is not the same as a 17yo.

We are only talking about 'schools' but in the UK the lower risk group (primary) actually has the lower risk arrangements (single class bubble, same teacher) in most cases.

The arrangements get progressively less comfortable imo as you go up through the key stages and KS5 is just not defensible imo, they are adults.

I sent my primary child in for the reasons you outline. But secondary is very different.

I do not believe the government would invest a single extra penny. This is why it can't be done

Ahh so you DO agree with me it can't be done then. Exactly what I said in the first place I just used the reasons why the extra money would be needed to facilitate it.

We could all do a lot of things if money was endless unfortunately it isn't.

Just read the article. I genuinely want to be filled with confidence about the reopening of schools,that article does nothing to help this. First it’s an opinion (we all have those), second says what we already know and third leaves me with an impression it’s been written on a wing and a prayer.

Mine emailed and got no answers or answers hours later. They’ve had barely any teaching with a teacher for 6 months.

I just don't think two wrongs make a right. This should not have happened, and I would want students to have small group teaching.

But I think social distancing is needed this winter.

@whistlestopsong please do not imply that children with vulnerabilities do not matter. You cited a statistic: 20 kids in England have died of covid. This statistic is decontextualised. This means -

1. The statistic does not give us a basic picture of whether is applies to the general population or whether there are mitigating variables here.

1. The statistic can be easily used to drum up anxiety “20 children died!!”. It’s absolutely necessary we present evidence as the evidence it actually is: in other words - who were these children? Is the stat generalisable? Is it applicable to the general population? What is the rate of fatality it presents? How does this rate compare to other illnesses in the general population?

Without these we cannot form judgements and make decisions for ourselves and others. Questioning and critiquing the way evidence is (mis)interpreter does not mean “do these kids not matter”. Then there would be no science, no rational thought.

If someone tells me “30 people died from eating tonka beans”, I would for instance need to know what the sample was, how much tonka bean was consumed, and many other things before I declined a tonka bean dessert.

How can you argue that scrutinising data, asking for contextualising evidence means “do these kids not matter”??

Woo hoo for you being an 'academic researcher' .

You don't need to justify your parenting choices you know. I'm happy for schools to open, it's just the white-washing of any evidence that COVID can and does effect children, and being threatened with losing school places, which bothers me.

I'm not an academic researcher. As you've probably guessed. I'm still able to see from statistics that 20 children have died from COVID in England and that's when schools have mostly been closed. Also in Italy, 19 Kawasaki cases in 2 years Vs 10 Kawasaki cases in 2 months. You don't need to be an 'academic researcher' to be concerned about those figures.

@Uhoh2020

I do not believe the government would invest a single extra penny. This is why it can't be done

Ahh so you DO agree with me it can't be done then. Exactly what I said in the first place I just used the reasons why the extra money would be needed to facilitate it.

We could all do a lot of things if money was endless unfortunately it isn't.

No, I think it can be done but the government has chosen not to do it.

I definitely don't agree with you! On numerous threads now

I believe social distancing should be in place in secondary schools and I believe it can be done.

It is one term, maybe two.

This winter has the potential to go horribly wrong for our country. I want to avoid deaths, another lockdown, and economic damage.

I want sustainable predictable arrangements in place from now til December.

I don't want a messy term.

So what should KS5 do then? You say they are adults, I'm not sure you have one at home. They have had no teaching whatsoever since March, their GCSE results are a shambles (Year 12), and Year 13 have the most important exams of their lives having missed six months of schooling. To leave them out of plans to reopen would be absolutely criminal. We have a KS5 bubble so they will have contact with only a few staff and will be confined to the Sixth Form block at social times. It's not ideal, but we can't just keep them off school indefinitely. I am a teacher and I've told my Dad who is extremely clinically vulnerable not to visit once schools go back for the foreseeable future. It's sad, but better than DD having to miss out even more than she has already. If we had a vulnerable person in the household I'd be looking to isolate them rather than put my kids' lives on hold any longer. They need to be back in school.

@mynameisnotmichaelcaine

I mean adults in terms of viral transmission. That is partly why Sweden did not send 16+ back.

I do have a KS5.

I have stated I believe part time schooling with distancing would be the best option.

What school in an area/country of high cases has gone back without any safety adjustments in place

In addition to the above comment - what organisation, education or otherwise, IN THE WHOLE WORLD has 'gone back' without any safety adjustments in place? Why British schools if nothing else is normal? How does British insane exceptionalism somehow provide protection against a virus that EVERYTHING ELSE INTHE WHOLE WORLD has organised measures to deal with?

Generally I would say people need to try not to get too heated.

We are all worried about our children and all.care very deeply for them.

Fighting amongst parents is happening because we have been badly let down by our absentee government.

Those whose children needed contact we're let down by total closure.

Those who are concerned now about health aspects are being let down by 'chuck 'em in hope for the best' approach.

Both total closure and full reopening are a) cheap and b) require no government thought. Neither are right.

Parents are being made to argue as a deliberate tactic to prevent us being cross about our utterly shit government.

I don't want a messy term.

It's going to be an extremely messy 3 terms I'd say. Imagine that no child or staff member in any school has a confirmed case of covid between now and March. You're still going to have a rolling 2 days absence schedule while children and staff have symptoms and go for tests. Let alone the time they then have off 'ill' even if they have a negative result. Rightly or wrongly, schools operate every winter full of ill staff and children. That's normal. This year it can't happen. I've not had a day off sick in 12 years, but this year there will be some because of testing. Who is catching the children up from these repeated days of absence? What if the teacher is off for 2 days every 2 weeks? How is learning going to be affected? How is behaviour going to be affected? It's going to be a hokey cokey term, even if covid stays away. We all need to be prepared for that.

@CKBJ

Just read the article. I genuinely want to be filled with confidence about the reopening of schools,that article does nothing to help this. First it’s an opinion (we all have those), second says what we already know and third leaves me with an impression it’s been written on a wing and a prayer.

This. The article doesn’t seem to provide any new evidence at all. I want my kids back at school (and currently plan to send them), but this isn’t reassuring, it just lays out the very partial evidence we already have.

Schools that were operating on reduced capacity during the summer, both here and in Sweden, can’t really be compared to packed to capacity schools in winter. And they never seem to properly consider teenagers! It’s as though they just forget about secondary schools (and I write this as someone who’s kids are primary age)

The headline doesn't match the body of the article though. It clearly says that children might well infect others so how exactly does that make it safe? Children might well be at less risk from Covid but children aren't the only people in school and children leave school and go home to other people. Why on earth aren't there infection control measures planned for in school? That whole article is full of possibles, maybes and questions. It doesn't say that it's safe

@Trinketsfor20

To contribute an alternative perspective. I have a 4 year old and a 6 month old who was born at the start of the pandemic. By profession I am an academic researcher - evidence-based research is my day job. My 4 yo returned to nursery FT as always the moment they opened and this has been the best for all of us - he graduated yesterday. My 6 month old baby started in the same nursery last week as I returned to work. My 4 yo is going to reception this September. As a mother of very small children, indeed an infant, as an academic who deals in evidence led research, and as a citizen - it is unthinkable to me to keep them back . Spouse and I are taking great care with measures such as hygiene, exposure and distancing but beyond that we are living life on the understanding that this virus is here to stay for a while yet.

If there were vulnerabilities in the family then of course different conversations are needed. But when figures such as “20 kids died” are cited and more often than not equates to maternal/parental protective instinct it really does bother me both because of the mistaken risks perceived through de-contextualised and misinterpreted evidence and because it seems to convey that putting kids and ourselves in a bubble for the rest of the time this virus is around is the Best way to proceed

I agree with this

Should add, I'm 'fine' to 'go back' (been in all along), but we need to be realistic about what it will look like. Weak gov leadership has let us down here.

@mynameisnotmichaelcaine

So what should KS5 do then? You say they are adults, I'm not sure you have one at home. They have had no teaching whatsoever since March, their GCSE results are a shambles (Year 12), and Year 13 have the most important exams of their lives having missed six months of schooling. To leave them out of plans to reopen would be absolutely criminal. We have a KS5 bubble so they will have contact with only a few staff and will be confined to the Sixth Form block at social times. It's not ideal, but we can't just keep them off school indefinitely. I am a teacher and I've told my Dad who is extremely clinically vulnerable not to visit once schools go back for the foreseeable future. It's sad, but better than DD having to miss out even more than she has already. If we had a vulnerable person in the household I'd be looking to isolate them rather than put my kids' lives on hold any longer. They need to be back in school.

Absolutely!

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

The headline doesn't match the body of the article though. It clearly says that children might well infect others so how exactly does that make it safe? Children might well be at less risk from Covid but children aren't the only people in school and children leave school and go home to other people. Why on earth aren't there infection control measures planned for in school? That whole article is full of possibles, maybes and questions. It doesn't say that it's safe

It summarises all the evidence so far that points to being safe. That's a good thing

I have stated I believe part time schooling with distancing would be the best option

The point is it isn't a flaming option though whether we like it or not! And stating it on every comment on every thread isnt going to change it.

Parents are being made to argue as a deliberate tactic to prevent us being cross about our utterly shit government

This i will agree with you on. Its sad that we have to argue about it to vent our frustrations because children have been thrown under the bus in many different ways and the government dont care. By the time our children are grown up they will be someone else's problem.

OP your sentiment is good, but people on here will not be happy until everyone is dead by Christmas.

The school situation in England has huge potential to follow in the footsteps of the Exams fiasco. Yes we are in unprecedented times, yes children are not badly infected and yes all children have access to education. However, there is the big BUT. What about vulnerable parents, teachers in cramped classrooms, vulnerable children. I wish the government were governing and have a secure plan b, a bit of forward thinking. Schools were basically shut to the majority in March how come we all manage to have varying degrees of foresight but they don’t?Plan b should have been presented months ago.