School re-opening may not go well.

[jomartin281271]

Here's an article from the New York Times documenting what happened when the Israeli government decided to re-open their schools. They thought they had beaten the virus (which this country certainly hasn't) and within days it was spreading again like wildfire. One section of the article is particularly interesting. It reads:

'Public health experts worldwide have coalesced around a set of guidelines for reopening schools.

A major recommendation is to create groups of 10 to 15 students who stay together in classrooms, at recess and lunchtime, with teachers assigned to only one group. Each group has minimal contact with other groups, limiting any spread of infection. And if a case of Covid-19 emerges, one group can be quarantined at home while others can continue at school.

Other key recommendations include staggering schedules or teaching older students online, keeping desks several feet apart, sanitizing classrooms more frequently, providing ventilation and opening windows if possible, and requiring masks for staff and students old enough to wear them properly.'

Our government are going to be cramming the kids into the same old classrooms, students won't be wearing masks, and the older students won't be able to study remotely. And this in a country with one of the highest mortality rates from Covid in the world.

You can read the full article here.

www.nytimes.com/2020/08/04/world/middleeast/coronavirus-israel-schools-reopen.html

The flu season kills thousands upon thousands each year, and that's WITH a vaccination. The whole reaction is ludicras. I am a teacher btw

Even if it was like flu (which it isn’t). There is no immunity in the population. At best loads of teachers would be sick - meaning the school would be unable to open.
We need to reduce the transmission of Covid, why on Earth masks aren’t made compulsory in secondary schools is a mystery to me (exemptions would apply).

@moretolifethanthis2020

It fascinates me that most people on Mumsnet ignore the fact that for a huge proportion of children in the UK, that schools are their place, that schools are their first line of support for child protection, that schools had to provide breakfast for them as they weren't getting it at home. These children have been totally and utterly forgotten about. Not all pupils come from nice middle class homes! You shut these schools down for any longer and there is a MASSIVE safeguarding risk. There already is a massive issue. Viruses are not new to 2020. The flu season kills thousands upon thousands each year, and that's WITH a vaccination. The whole reaction is ludicras. I am a teacher btw.

I think you mean ludicrous.

This is ludacris.

Conversely my daughter has been in nursery or summer camp since June and there have been no cases of Covid at either setting. I don’t disagree that secondary presents many more challenges but it doesn’t have to be doom and gloom.

It's going to be a shit show.

I'm not saying schools shouldn't reopen, they absolutely should. BUT they needed to have done more planning. I think they should have:

• recruited more teachers (maybe ones who have left the profession and recently become redundant or are in retraining) or those qualified teachers working as HLTAs.
• looked at housing schools, particularly secondary schools, in other buildings.
• reduce the size of classes, one teach per per class of 15 max (possible because of the points above) in primary school. No mixing of bubbles - stagger lunch and play times.
• in secondary school get year 9+ wearing masks.
• Enforce social distancing in class rooms in SS (possible due to points 1&2 above)

But no planning has been done. This isn't the fault of individual schools, it is the fault of the government.

These are unprecedented times,

It'll be interesting to see what happens when schools return in Scotland.

I obviously absolutely hope it goes well and wish all staff and kids well.

But our government can monitor rise in cases.

Does anyone know if Scotland's return is same as England and all in, bubbles and no masks?

I’m certainly preparing for a year of disrupted education. If it doesn’t happen, then great! But I don’t want to stick my head in the sand just because of a fear of ‘doom and gloom’

@Trashtara

It's going to be a shit show.

I'm not saying schools shouldn't reopen, they absolutely should. BUT they needed to have done more planning. I think they should have:

• recruited more teachers (maybe ones who have left the profession and recently become redundant or are in retraining) or those qualified teachers working as HLTAs.
• looked at housing schools, particularly secondary schools, in other buildings.
• reduce the size of classes, one teach per per class of 15 max (possible because of the points above) in primary school. No mixing of bubbles - stagger lunch and play times.
• in secondary school get year 9+ wearing masks.
• Enforce social distancing in class rooms in SS (possible due to points 1&2 above)

But no planning has been done. This isn't the fault of individual schools, it is the fault of the government.

These are unprecedented times,

Yes to all of this! This should be copied and pasted on every schools thread

@Sailingblue

Conversely my daughter has been in nursery or summer camp since June and there have been no cases of Covid at either setting. I don’t disagree that secondary presents many more challenges but it doesn’t have to be doom and gloom.

I don't think you can take one setting and then extrapolate to everywhere else. So while it is obviously a good thing there have been no cases at the places your daughter attends, that doesn't mean no nurseries have had cases (we know they have, for example the one in Milton Keynes). Lots of people will have visited pubs that have had no cases, but obviously it is spreading in some pubs such as in Aberdeen. You only get outbreaks if you have a person attend with covid, unfortunately if you have more spread in the community that means a person with covid is more likely to attend a particular place.

The big city next door to me just changed its mind about the hybrid school reopening plan they had developed. They are now going to be online.

I am in a US state where things could have been far, far worse than they are right now, but numbers have been edging upwards since certain aspects of the lockdown have eased despite restaurants and non-essential shops reopening with huge limitations on seating and capacity, and with masks mandatory everywhere.

The fear is real that even with adequate cleaning and mandatory mask wearing, reopening will spell disaster, with students crowded together in buses, on trains, getting lifts on the way to and from school, and coming and going from the school buildings themselves, with many students returning home to multi generational families and families where members have medical risks.

It gradually dawned on the leaders of the school system that the risks far outweigh the benefits.

Scotland's secondary schools, AFAIK, are no bubbles, no masks but teachers need to socially distance from pupils and colleagues. Also increased hygiene, etc. I think assembles will be banned for now.

My son is starting back next week and we still haven't had final confirmation of the finer details.

@Redolent

That's an interesting point flags:

Outbreaks in pubs : MN and MSM bay for all pubs to be shut
Outbreaks in educational setting: MSM ignores and MN says 'well there haven't been any in my school'

Can we also please clarify that an American summer camp is not the same as a UK holiday activity club.

As a school governor I am very worried indeed about schools going back in September. It is basically an experiment with the lives of the children and staff.

Where I am, it will only take one staff member to fall ill or have to self-isolate and the whole pack of cards will come tumbling down. There will be insufficient staff to keep the children in class bubbles and maintain safety.

@Redolent hahaha how funny I did that, what an idiot lol.

BTW I am not comparing it to the flu as a virus, but about the deaths and the risk.

Schools have been open for key worker children who would be most at risk of spreading the virus surely....and nothing. Viruses are not new to 2020...dying is not new to 2020. This hysteria is madness and luckily it seems mainly a Mumsnet special and not the general view of the public. Most of the public have to work, despite the 'risk' as if they don't work they don't earn and then they can't live. Where I live, we had the crying nurse videos all over Facebook...in our local news today it said during the peak, they treated 30 people in intensive care .

Look, I'm not going to comment anymore, but this hysteria is beyond ridiculous. Get these poor children back to school..

Can we also please clarify that an American summer camp is not the same as a UK holiday activity club.

Not the same, no. But from the pov of facilitating the spread of the virus they are six of one and half a dozen of the other.

@Mischance

As a school governor I am very worried indeed about schools going back in September. It is basically an experiment with the lives of the children and staff.

Where I am, it will only take one staff member to fall ill or have to self-isolate and the whole pack of cards will come tumbling down. There will be insufficient staff to keep the children in class bubbles and maintain safety.

Oh please.....! The experiment, if you want to be so dramatic, was with keyworker's children and teachers during the peak. The experience was with the countries who kept their schools open during the whole thing and teachers have had no more excess deaths than other members of the public.

Stop with the emotive language and get the children back to school. I am a teacher and seriously, all teachers I know want to be back in their classrooms with their children.

Could you tell me what country did that? Across all year groups?

Also, it wasn't just keyworkers' children as you should know if you are the expert. It also should have been the vulnerable children you profess such concern about. Children's service , cut to the bone, did not (or could not) step up in their role to get those children protected and in to school either. this is why the children's commissioner keeps deflecting on to schools because she knows children's services will be found wanting.

@moretolifethanthis2020 @KnobChops I share your feelings completely. People who can even contemplate schools not going back and their life/work continuing don’t realise how privileged they are. It’s non negotiable for any working single parent and any families of 2 working parents (which is most). Otherwise economic ruin.

@Trashtara

It's going to be a shit show.

I'm not saying schools shouldn't reopen, they absolutely should. BUT they needed to have done more planning. I think they should have:

• recruited more teachers (maybe ones who have left the profession and recently become redundant or are in retraining) or those qualified teachers working as HLTAs.
• looked at housing schools, particularly secondary schools, in other buildings.
• reduce the size of classes, one teach per per class of 15 max (possible because of the points above) in primary school. No mixing of bubbles - stagger lunch and play times.
• in secondary school get year 9+ wearing masks.
• Enforce social distancing in class rooms in SS (possible due to points 1&2 above)

But no planning has been done. This isn't the fault of individual schools, it is the fault of the government.

These are unprecedented times,

• recruit more teachers - retired teachers going back into the classroom, not going to happen. Older, more at risk, know how badly education has been treated by this government. Ditto QTS working as HLTAs

• Other buildings cost money, there is none. Secondary schools need different staff to teach different subjects. Housing some students in other buildings away from the school means staff having to move between buildings, adding in transport costs. Government have said no to using other spaces.
• Classes of 15, not possible because of points above plus there is already a massive shortage of teachers.
• does the virus know that it mustn’t infect Yr7 or 8? Why do Yr9+ need masks but not 7 or 8?
• SD is still not going to happen even with classes of 15, classrooms are not big enough. Many will be suitable for 7 or 8 students to SD.

I totally agree that this is not the fault of schools, they have planned as well as they can, given government guidance.

All of your points imply full time, full return. That will lead to an inevitable spread of virus and school closures.

@Trashtara

It's going to be a shit show.

I'm not saying schools shouldn't reopen, they absolutely should. BUT they needed to have done more planning. I think they should have:

• recruited more teachers (maybe ones who have left the profession and recently become redundant or are in retraining) or those qualified teachers working as HLTAs.
• looked at housing schools, particularly secondary schools, in other buildings.
• reduce the size of classes, one teach per per class of 15 max (possible because of the points above) in primary school. No mixing of bubbles - stagger lunch and play times.
• in secondary school get year 9+ wearing masks.
• Enforce social distancing in class rooms in SS (possible due to points 1&2 above)

But no planning has been done. This isn't the fault of individual schools, it is the fault of the government.

These are unprecedented times,

You’d need two adults min per bubble so people could clean/go to the toilet.

This is the sort of thing Gov should be starting with not ‘all pile in somehow’

Not reallymath. They are in very close quarters to each other, including in cabins with overnight stays and are led by young people (teenagers) : the very people some believe seem not to spread the virus.

• I'm not saying schools shouldn't reopen, they absolutely should. BUT they needed to have done more planning. I think they should have:

• recruited more teachers (maybe ones who have left the profession and recently become redundant or are in retraining) or those qualified teachers working as HLTAs.
• looked at housing schools, particularly secondary schools, in other buildings.*

All of which requires money. The government have recently made an announcement which means schools will have less money not more. They really are idiots in the government as far as education is concerned, they only value schools as childcare and even then barely at all.

The keyworkers' children were going to schools at a time when pubs were shut, restaurants and many businesses were shut, and hardly anyone was using public transport.

Obviously (well obviously to some but clearly not to others) things will be different now because all those places are open and people are mingling more, and the figures indicate predictable results.

www.bbc.com/news/health-53609354

@moretolifethanthis2020 I too am a teacher and we have spent a lot of time supporting our vulnerable families, providing food, support etc. on a regular basis etc so no they are not ‘forgotten about’.

To me the ‘won’t someone think of the children send them back regardless’ are the hysterical posts. Not the ones trying to make suggestions to reopen schools safely and to as many children as possible. I find it weird that those that tend to shout about everyone going back and just get on with it are unable to see that’s what we are trying to do safely. We are in the middle of a global pandemic. It’s not normal so we need to do things differently in order to make it work. Why would you not want that?