School re-opening may not go well.

[jomartin281271]

Here's an article from the New York Times documenting what happened when the Israeli government decided to re-open their schools. They thought they had beaten the virus (which this country certainly hasn't) and within days it was spreading again like wildfire. One section of the article is particularly interesting. It reads:

'Public health experts worldwide have coalesced around a set of guidelines for reopening schools.

A major recommendation is to create groups of 10 to 15 students who stay together in classrooms, at recess and lunchtime, with teachers assigned to only one group. Each group has minimal contact with other groups, limiting any spread of infection. And if a case of Covid-19 emerges, one group can be quarantined at home while others can continue at school.

Other key recommendations include staggering schedules or teaching older students online, keeping desks several feet apart, sanitizing classrooms more frequently, providing ventilation and opening windows if possible, and requiring masks for staff and students old enough to wear them properly.'

Our government are going to be cramming the kids into the same old classrooms, students won't be wearing masks, and the older students won't be able to study remotely. And this in a country with one of the highest mortality rates from Covid in the world.

You can read the full article here.

www.nytimes.com/2020/08/04/world/middleeast/coronavirus-israel-schools-reopen.html

[MrsHerculePoirot]

@MangoFeverDream The large South Korean study of 65000 concluded that under 10s might not spread very much but that 10-19 year olds spread it ‘at least as much’ as adults.... hence the worry about secondaries in particular.

[TheHoneyBadger]

If being in your own home equates to having your life ruined then you have bigger issues than covid.

Honestly do you think your child’s life is ruined by spending time at home then that’s really disturbing

AS for genuinely at risk and abused kids I think they deserve way better than a 6hr abuse free window. How does a few hours in school equal safeguarding in the face of abuse?

[TheHoneyBadger]

To me it seems obvious that abused children should be taken away from their abusers. I’m not at all convinced that going to school counters physical, sexual or emotional abuse at home. Does anyone really think that school is the answer to being left in an abusive home?

Sure we’re the ones who raise concerns but the reality is our concerns lead to fuck all action. Like it or not we’re in a system where abused kids are left with their abusers and going to school doesn’t solve problems at home.

Shelling out to provide breakfast for those kids doesn’t stop them having to go home to abuse.

Pretending 6 hrs in school in term time can counter living in an abusive home 365 days a year is sick.

[Bluewavescrashing]

But school staff can refer to social services if children disclose abuse or show signs of neglect. If the children aren't seen by teachers and support staff, signs of abuse will be missed.

[MangoFeverDream]

Yes that is EXACTLY why schools around the world are closing. To 'make us feel better' was it also caused by 5G

Most schools are continuing as usual and not closing. Israel is touted as the cautionary tale but schools are still planning to reopen in September.

Where else is shutting down after reopening?

If being in your own home equates to having your life ruined then you have bigger issues than covid

Six months to a year is a long time for a child. Getting behind on education could have lifelong effects. Especially as many other countries are continuing in-school education with modifications.

Even the CDC says kids need to go back to school and the risks of keeping them home outweigh those of letting them go: www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/schools-childcare/reopening-schools.html

[MrsHerculePoirot]

@MangoFeverDream please do share where exactly ‘Most schools are continuing as usual and not closing.’

All the countries I’ve looked into aren’t ‘continuing as usual’ at all. And certainly many where more are going back in younger years are countries where they have small numbers in classes usually....

[Piggywaspushed]

Israel has learnt lessons and massively.modifird things to reopen. Lots of schools are reopening worldwide after complete closure. The UK is one of the very few countries that did not completely close.

It us really far too early to say how things will go in most badly affected countries.

[MrsHerculePoirot]

Even the CDC says kids need to go back to school and the risks of keeping them home outweigh those of letting them go:

That is comparing no school AT ALL which we’ve all, repeatedly, said we’re not asking for?!? We’re asking how to ensure we go back safely not asking to remain closed.

It also doesn’t differentiate at all between younger (under 10) and older (10 and over) children. The study from South Korea which is more recent shows the very big difference. But I suspect you know that and are continuing to ignore it.

To clarify - we are jot saying no schools should remain closed. No-one at all has said that. As teachers I suspect we are far more aware of the dangers to vulnerable students than many of the general public. We have suggested how things could be managed to support those students particularly. We are looking at how, with time and planning, things could have been done safely to ensure students receive a consistent education in difficult circumstances so that students are kept safe, families are protected, education continues as uninterrupted as possible.

Shouting loudly schools should just go back doesn’t make the virus go away.

[Piggywaspushed]

It's worth reading this for a balanced view:

schoolsweek.co.uk/5-reasons-to-be-cautious-about-estimates-of-lockdown-learning-loss/

[TheHoneyBadger]

Yes we can, and do, report concerns but mostly nothing happens or we’re told yes that child is already listed as at risk.

We can also flag mh problems but given camhs funding has been cut to the bone the main objective seems to be avoiding having to acknowledge that child. Even 8 years ago when I was in fe it seemed like deliberate ignoring of young people’s problems and/or bouncing them around and delaying any action knowing if they could stall for a bit longer the child would be 18 and not their problem or funding responsibility.

[MangoFeverDream]

Most schools are continuing as usual and not closing

I don’t mean they haven’t employed mitigation strategies, but that most reopened schools have not shut down — not even in Israel.

www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/school-openings-across-globe-suggest-ways-keep-coronavirus-bay-despite-outbreaks

That is comparing no school AT ALL which we’ve all, repeatedly, said we’re not asking for

You personally may not be asking for this, but there are those who definitely want to delay until later in the year or even next. Particularly in the US but I hear this in the UK as well.

Shouting loudly schools should just go back doesn’t make the virus go away

Good, but it can be made safe and other countries have had positive experiences.

[ohthegoats]

At the moment, British schools are literally the only organisations/institutions in the WHOLE FUCKING WORLD expected to just carry on as normal with a bit of extra cleaning.

Just needs saying lots of times I think.

[MrsHerculePoirot]

@MangoFeverDream

Most schools are continuing as usual and not closing

I don’t mean they haven’t employed mitigation strategies, but that most reopened schools have not shut down — not even in Israel.

www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/school-openings-across-globe-suggest-ways-keep-coronavirus-bay-despite-outbreaks

That is comparing no school AT ALL which we’ve all, repeatedly, said we’re not asking for

You personally may not be asking for this, but there are those who definitely want to delay until later in the year or even next. Particularly in the US but I hear this in the UK as well.

Shouting loudly schools should just go back doesn’t make the virus go away

Good, but it can be made safe and other countries have had positive experiences.

I haven’t seen a single post here on Mumsnet saying schools shouldn’t open at all. If there is one please point me in that direction.

“I don’t mean they haven’t employed mitigation strategies” - what like exactly what we are asking for here? That is the whole basis of the discussion I am seeing here. People asking what mitigation can we put in. Posters then come and say ‘get on with it’ everyone needs to go back.

I’m not sure what you are arguing against. This post of yours is saying what we are saying - let’s find a way to do this safely.
In order to do it safely at secondary blended learning might be an answer - that is not schools not going back. We are saying rather than the current ‘just open schools’ strategy the government currently seems to have, particularly at secondary - we should have had time to plan, discuss and work within communities to make it safe.

[Beawillalwaysbetopdog]

Especially as many other countries are continuing in-school education with modifications.

Others have already said it, but it's those modifications we're asking for.

Masks, rotas, extra money for cleaning supplies and supply staff. Possibly if it's practical sanctions for sending in ill students.

Without these, for many schools, full time will be fulltime for a few weeks and then a shitshow of opening and closing various year groups, with lots of staff absence.

Planned blended learning will be much more efficient than reactionary blended learning. The government can say all it likes in it's plans that we need to be able to swap seamlessly to online learning at the drop of a hat, but we won't have the time to provide quality home learning for students who are isolating whilst we're teaching others in school. In my subject there's very few stand alone lessons, so miss two weeks and it will impact the whole unit of work.

[phlebasconsidered]

Mango - I live with my 80 year old mother who has vascular dementia. I will be teaching in a bubble of around 100, both my kids are in bubbles of around 250. But schools are apparently magic so i'm being told it will be fine.

It is not unusual for children to live with elderly relatives, particularly in some communities.

[Keepdistance]

If it were planned blended learning
Gov would have to work on laptops for more students
Wifi for more
Schools could plan their provision
School could sort zoom/teams

Parents could buy laptops/devices/wifi etc rather than uniform and bus passes

Schools were i think i saw somewhere 0.3 of r so there isnt the space it will rise.
It certainly is NOT in businwess in uk interests to be locked down for xmas. And all the people who wont see families.

[Bupkis]

@MangoFeverDream
Most children don’t live with their grandparents, who are the most vulnerable

And what of the children who have been deemed critically vulnerable and shielding until now?

[Letseatgrandma]

Good, but it can be made safe and other countries have had positive experiences

Indeed it can, which I think is what people on this thread have been saying. Which is why it’s astonishing that in England, the government are doing nothing to make it safe in schools.

[noblegiraffe]

A lot of kids are picked up from school by their grandparents even if they don’t live with them.

[canigooutyet]

It's not just grandparents that are vulnerable.
There are parents out there who are 50+ doing the primary school run.
There are parents out there who are vulnerable because of underlying illness, bame, obese etc. I'm one of the "younger" vulnerable who is uninsurable (yes really, everytime I get an unsolicited call about my existing imaginary insurance policy, they of course go through the motions and hear the health stuff and it's always erm sorry.)

There are pupils who attend schools who are extremely vulnerable because of their underlying illnesses. There are pupils who attend school who have had trachea and permanent breathing equipment. Last school I worked in we had 8 pupils, and of course, all with specialist carers 24/7.

The guidelines do fuck all to protect them.

Any parent of a child with unlying illness will tell you, blended learning isn't a thing. When they are off for often months at a time, there is no education unless they are in hospital.

But I suppose to some they are "lucky" as they will be able to get a doctors letter to not attend school. And knowing the struggle the parents have getting anything for their kids when they aren't in school, how many will de-register? The various physio, speech and language etc they need is delivered by nhs mainly in school, when their dc's are off, this all becomes very sporadic because they don't have the time.

Some of my sons parents are thinking about de-registering knowing that at the end of the day, Math, English and Science can be gained at a later time when there will be less disruptions. Many of whom had dc's in this years exams and this will be along with Scotland, a major decider in what happens.

Every pupils who de-registers is less money for the school.
Legally we can home school and unfortunately there are no checks in place to see this is happening. Although most parents/carers do take it seriously and their dc's still sit gcse's. I had to home school my eldest for a lot of secondary, because of his circumstances the lea provided a tutor, which was one hour a week to cover the the full curriculum. The "tutor" btw was a learning mentor, nothing against them they do fantastic work but they aren't teachers.

When he wasn't available, there wasn't always a replacement depending on the bank staff the lea had, and at times he'd be sent a youth worker, play scheme worker, sn knowledgeable but at younger primary etc.

[DateLoaf]

I’m not a teacher but I am so pissed off for them that the government is now-mid August- making it their fault if they go on holiday to a place they have to go into quarantine after. That’s blaming them for something that the kids and parents are also doing.

[GingerandTilly]

Interesting...
amp.independent.ie/irish-news/education/covid-19-ireland-government-recommends-facemasks-for-when-schools-reopen-39431887.html?__twitter_impression=true

[Jihhery]

When they are off for often months at a time, there is no education unless they are in hospital.

That's not the case. In our area children have home education paid for by the education board if they can't attend school for longer than a few weeks.

[canigooutyet]

@Jihhery

When they are off for often months at a time, there is no education unless they are in hospital.

That's not the case. In our area children have home education paid for by the education board if they can't attend school for longer than a few weeks.

Oh so it's another one of the "postcode" things and not standard across the UK.

[Jihhery]

I don't know. They get eight hours one to one at home... Thought this was standard.