School re-opening may not go well.

[jomartin281271]

Here's an article from the New York Times documenting what happened when the Israeli government decided to re-open their schools. They thought they had beaten the virus (which this country certainly hasn't) and within days it was spreading again like wildfire. One section of the article is particularly interesting. It reads:

'Public health experts worldwide have coalesced around a set of guidelines for reopening schools.

A major recommendation is to create groups of 10 to 15 students who stay together in classrooms, at recess and lunchtime, with teachers assigned to only one group. Each group has minimal contact with other groups, limiting any spread of infection. And if a case of Covid-19 emerges, one group can be quarantined at home while others can continue at school.

Other key recommendations include staggering schedules or teaching older students online, keeping desks several feet apart, sanitizing classrooms more frequently, providing ventilation and opening windows if possible, and requiring masks for staff and students old enough to wear them properly.'

Our government are going to be cramming the kids into the same old classrooms, students won't be wearing masks, and the older students won't be able to study remotely. And this in a country with one of the highest mortality rates from Covid in the world.

You can read the full article here.

www.nytimes.com/2020/08/04/world/middleeast/coronavirus-israel-schools-reopen.html

The general consensus on here is schools must reopen, full time for all.
People are concerned about their child's education and mental health, and worried about their jobs. All valid and understandable.
What worried me, is that unless the virus diminishes by its self we are heading for a nightmare of constant family self isolation with the whole family needing to take time off if a family member has symptoms, symptoms similar to the common cold. And self isolation due to the bubble system.
How many people will actually comply with this? Will employers put up with it?
Coughs and colds are rife in the Autumn term and schools will have to send children home.
The government have had months to plan for a careful reopening but instead are choosing a blinkered full steam ahead approach.
We need a good plan and several contingency plans for the schools to successfully open and stay open.

While it’s the different Australian population (and distribution of population) that seems relevant for this discussion, there’s been no big scary outbreaks that are school related here, not in the first wave, or the second wave (limited mainly to one southern state.)

Sadly it’s aged care homes that are bearing the brunt of cases and deaths, and that’s still in less than double digits per day. So horrible for individual families, but the numbers of people dying under 70 with no underlying conditions, are minuscule. In fact yesterday one tenth of the deaths were over 100 years old. Not a nice way to go, but still.

So in these areas, there are 500 average new cases per day and yes, we’ve just moved to extend remote learning for schools. But such tiny numbers of kids getting it, and kids passing it. With schools entirely free and open for some weeks. A few worrying community transmissions, but under 10 in this whole last week.

Seems clear to me that opening all schools in a country, then closing briefly around clusters that outbreak is going to be the ‘new normal’ for quite a while. A deep clean and proper investigation of everyone involved in a school where positive cases show up. Is that really so unthinkable?

I’m saying this from one of the most locked-down, properly testing places on earth right now. I can’t stick my nose out of my home for practically anything bar groceries (one person, once a day), but I’m still all for schools opening unless new evidence says it’s unwise. There just aren’t any absolutes in this new game.

@StaffAssociationRepresentative

We are not allowed to keep fires doors open for ventilation as that contravenes fire safety regs. A school nearby got pulled up by OFSTED during a very hot summer inspection.

We’ve been allowed to keep them open now as the risk from Covid was higher than the risk from a fire. It came from our LA.

@Trashtara classes of 16 😵😵😵

We have between 30-36 in classrooms clearly designed for far less.

Can I ask if any of the teachers on here saying ‘get on with it and get back’ also work in large secondary comps? I’m just wondering if different schools might have different circumstances that make it seem safer in your case is all. I’d be really interested to hear from any fellow secondary teachers in large (1000 or more) comps as to how or what your school are doing that makes you feel it is safe going forwards?

@Nitpickpicnic

While it’s the different Australian population (and distribution of population) that seems relevant for this discussion, there’s been no big scary outbreaks that are school related here, not in the first wave, or the second wave (limited mainly to one southern state.)

Sadly it’s aged care homes that are bearing the brunt of cases and deaths, and that’s still in less than double digits per day. So horrible for individual families, but the numbers of people dying under 70 with no underlying conditions, are minuscule. In fact yesterday one tenth of the deaths were over 100 years old. Not a nice way to go, but still.

So in these areas, there are 500 average new cases per day and yes, we’ve just moved to extend remote learning for schools. But such tiny numbers of kids getting it, and kids passing it. With schools entirely free and open for some weeks. A few worrying community transmissions, but under 10 in this whole last week.

Seems clear to me that opening all schools in a country, then closing briefly around clusters that outbreak is going to be the ‘new normal’ for quite a while. A deep clean and proper investigation of everyone involved in a school where positive cases show up. Is that really so unthinkable?

I’m saying this from one of the most locked-down, properly testing places on earth right now. I can’t stick my nose out of my home for practically anything bar groceries (one person, once a day), but I’m still all for schools opening unless new evidence says it’s unwise. There just aren’t any absolutes in this new game.

Is this in Australia where you have had 255 deaths in total, compared to our 46,300? I get what you’re saying and want to remain positive, but if the situation is very different in Australia with a lot more space and only 19,000 cases as opposed to 300,000, chances are community spread will be a lot higher in England.

@MrsHerculePoirot I hope that has been squared off with insurance policy etc. Imagine that in a court of law - L.A. said we could prop them open, lawyer asks what authority do they have over fire regs?

How about we get lovely new schools that are fit for purpose?

Sorry i just had to cut and paste - ALL OF THIS vvvvv -

So the people going SCHOOLS BACK TO NORMAL KIDS NEED AN EDUCATION

What do you want to happen when schools going back to normal inevitably causes outbreaks as seen in other countries?

SCHOOLS TO STAY OPEN DESPITE KIDS AND TEACHERS TESTING POSITIVE?

SCHOOLS TO STAY OPEN DESPITE NUMEROUS TEACHERS BEING OFF SICK?

SCHOOLS TO STAY OPEN PLEASE VOLUNTEER TO SUPERVISE CLASSES DUE TO TEACHER SHORTAGE?

I mean, what’s your end game? When would you accept schools not being open as normal? Would you ever accept them closing or maybe implementing more effective measures?

External fire doors (as opposed to ones that segregate parts of the building to stop spread) needing to be kept closed has always struck me as a bit odd anyway. The fire is very unlikely to be outside the building and unless the fire was by the door, the door would be opened to allow us to exit anyway.

Sorry piggy yes, the brand is portakabin

MrsHerculePoirot yes, it's a very small school, only 70 in YR - Y6 and an extra 22 in nursery. So this doesn't actually impact on me, my children's school can bubble well and easily but I appreciate that primary schools of multiple form entry and classes of 30+ aren't able to and it is unfair!

@pontypridd personally I want a very robust track and trace system so that if a single person at a school tests positive then all the people they've been in contact with isolate and the outbreak is crushed.

I don't see how it will help deprived kids in Tower Hamlets to not be in school if a teacher tests positive in Blackburn.

How about we get lovely new schools that are fit for purpose?

Well, that would be ideal really wouldn't it.

As would valuing teacher properly and reducing the testing requirements on kids and the workload on teachers. Making teaching something people actually want to do again.

The general consensus on here is schools must reopen, full time for all.

Is it? I’d say there were plenty saying schools will open but pt or blended would be preferable.

I don't see how it will help deprived kids in Tower Hamlets to not be in school if a teacher tests positive in Blackburn.

I agree with you Helloit. But if the track and trace was robust (which it never will be) we'd be shutting schools down all the time and deprived kids would miss school anyway.

I think there needs to be really good online provision from schools for those that can stay at home. Schools will then be less full and vulnerable/deprived kids will have more chance of staying full time in school. Vulnerable in health kids will have more chance of getting a proper education whilst staying safe.

As people have mentioned, blended learning, part time school and part time online, would work well and achieve much the same.

I think in the long run education is going to have to move this way anyway. At the moment the system is so clunky and more about childcare than education.

@MrsHerculePoirot
I have tried to refrain from posting because I get so frustrated and emotional from some of the posts on these types of threads.

I can't understand how anybody can be happy for their child or loved one (school staff) to go back with the current guidance .

I teach in a comp (not quite as big as you by the sounds of it) but a very high % are bused in as we are rural. I am clinically vulnerable in more than one medical category. I am getting more and more anxious about the lack of any proper thought to how to mitigate the issue of everyone's safety. I am very much looking forward to being back in front of the classroom. I love my job and I have missed it. But I'm not 'allowed' to go into a small village shop without a face covering. But I'm expected to go back to work without any extra protection? And before someone says 'wear a mask then', that won't protect me! I need the vast majority of the kids and staff to be wearing them too.

I've been told on previous threads that I basically need to give up work and stay at home. A single parent to two primary dc. As many of you state on here, without school you can't work and won't be able to provide for your family. Well that is the same for me. I hated working from home. I want back.

I actually think the vast majority of us want the same thing. Schools open. Can someone please explain why that can't be done without making some adjustments? I go and pick up my prescription and I have to wait in line for 10+mins and speak through a screen in the outside wall. The person (wearing a mask, face shield and gloves) behind the wall then can't get all the medication through the screen so has to undo half a dozen locks on the door to pass them out. My dds have had various 'hospital' consultant appointments via telephone (I've actually preferred this). But I'm expected to go back to work as normal. Have any other professionals had the same expectation on them? All the shop workers around here are in masks and/or shields or have massive screens in front of them. You are also barked at to get back and socially distance.

I'm so depressed by the lack of any understanding from some of the posters on this thread and this forum as to why many of us are upset by this. We should be lobbying the government and DfE to implement new guidance to make sure when schools open they get a chance to stay open as proper thought has been put into keeping people as safe as possible.

(To also preempt some responses, we have been trying to go back out to support economy but have done so cautiously ie wearing face coverings and socially distancing. My kids are very happy to do so and have accepted it more readily than I have).

@pontypridd
I think there needs to be really good online provision from schools for those that can stay at home. Schools will then be less full and vulnerable/deprived kids will have more chance of staying full time in school. Vulnerable in health kids will have more chance of getting a proper education whilst staying safe.
Yes to this.

@user1471530109 solidarity from here.

Schools in Scotland are starting back next week, staff Monday 10th and 11th August and children thereafter.

Group A Wednesday (P2-7), P1's THursday, Group B Friday (P2-7).
From Monday 17th school back as normal for everyone.

It'll be interesting to see how it goes. You can learn from our mistakes if it all goes pear-shaped.

user i get that you are anxious.

If we can get community spread low enough then surely fewer children will get the virus and spread it less.

If we wear masks and people stop being so selfish then perhaps we could manage that.

To the PP who said that a good track and trace system would result in more school closures. I disagree with that. A good track and trace will identify people who have been exposed and take them out of circulation. If this is done well enough the numbers being infected will remain low.

This is the key imo. Keep community spread low and thus protects schools even when there are large bubbles and no social distancing.

I think this is true. I think ‘solid’ decisions are being delayed until there’s something to compare our system too!

I’m getting such mixed messages about whether I will be in school in September due to me being well into my third trimester at that point but I don’t think I’ll have a definite answer until the Scottish schools have opened! At that point, either adjustments will be made to keep pupils and staff safe based on what’s been learnt or it will be full steam ahead!

@Letseatgrandma

More feasible is for secondary schools to go online and primary schools to go to half sizes in secondary school classrooms.

Though I’m not sure the feet of my teenies would be able to reach the floor (and the toilets are probably too far away from the class so they would either get caught short on the way or get lost and never return!)

I think part-time blended learning for all is the way to go for the time being (all in, full time, no serious measures to mitigate lack of SD etc is flipping ridiculous). High school, especially those heading into exam years really need f2f contact too.

My above post was in reply to @GoldenKelpie

[quote Bupkis]@pontypridd
I think there needs to be really good online provision from schools for those that can stay at home. Schools will then be less full and vulnerable/deprived kids will have more chance of staying full time in school. Vulnerable in health kids will have more chance of getting a proper education whilst staying safe.
Yes to this.[/quote]
Who is going to supervise these children who are not physically in school?

for those that can stay at home.
I assume if parents have opted for their children to learn at home (because, e.g. they or their children have medical vulnerabilities) then they will have factored in that a parent will need to be home with them.

The current guidelines are a shitshow waiting to happen.
Oh look at how well other countries are doing, when you do you see airport restrictions, and even with social distancing and masks they are seeing spikes. China is still struggling.
Georgia should be cause for concern, including government, how many of their kids board?

Portakabins or whatever they are lol, have people forgot that schools have been given zero money?

Someone said well there is clearly a budget as the teachers have gotten a raise. This was implemented before CV btw, and to fund this schools will be forced to make cuts elsewhere.

I'm sure no-one will mind roads into the City of London blocked off with the portakabins? Schools don't have space to put them. Sure someone could math for the number needed for 1250 pupils? That's just one school that would block roads. A lot of schools could squeeze 5 on the playgrounds and remove all outside space. Never mind some schools already have them as classrooms.