Hoping everyone remembers at the ballot box

[oldbagface]

I really hope we all remember the shit show this bunch have made.

They give zero fucks for us and our loved ones.

NHS workers have been treated with contempt.

Teachers now seem to be new potential cannon fodder along with family members of young people.

Let's hope we all remember. Never voted Tory in my life btw and certainly won't now.

You said this

The public just got on with it in other countries, as it was obviously for the greater good. Here in Ireland restrictions started on 12th March

I then asked you to clarify what you meant by restrictions & you replied

Lockdown. I didn't use that word because there's always been some debate about how appropriate it is, but essentially the day that Boris finally announced definitive action, closing schools, banning mass gatherings, etc.

But life wasn't normal before lockdown.

25/02 self isolate if coming from certain countries.
12/03 people with symptoms should self isolate
14/03 people already started panic buying hence the supermarket letter
16/03 wfh if poss, avoid social events. Warning that the vulnerable will have to shield in coming days. Theatres close.
17/03 cinemas shut
etc

There are plenty of things to criticise the government for but we don't need to pretend that nothing was done until official lockdown.

it's what should have happened but isn't what would have happened

Can we just bold this in flashing lights!!!

The publication of data from the 4 nations alongside data for comparable European countries was eye opening. We have 4 governments of different political persuasions.

England and Scotland fared badly and we know a large part of their excess death rates come nursing homes. The timing of the lockdown only incidentally impacted on this. Both these administrations have questions to answer. Despite this, people on these boards ignore the data from Scotland and laud Sturgeon.

NI did the best. Of course it benefits from being less densely populated. But so does Scotland. But the potential political difficulties that could have happened, especially as the administration only recently agreed to work together, were far more of a risk. Instead of politicising the response, Arlene and Michelle, worked together. If they choose to ignore the ties to Europe, Ireland and the Uk they could eradicate.

It is also notable that NI has an integrated health and social care system. It would be interesting to look at how they managed their discharges to nursing homes. There system pre Covid is far more streamlined and human than the rest of the uk.

@Sakura7

Can you seriously look at the data and deduce that the UK has done as well as other countries, even Italy and Spain?

That wasn't the discussion we were having. My point has always been how would you have made people accept lockdown before they chose it.

But those were all 'should' and 'could', it was some time before more decisive action was taken.

The UK was some way behind the rest of Europe, bar Sweden. That's not my opinion, it's verifiable fact.

That wasn't the discussion we were having. My point has always been how would you have made people accept lockdown before they chose it.

Other countries managed it. Why do you think Britain is different?

@Sakura7 so when would you have got the country to lockdown & how would you have enforced it?

@Baaaahhhhh

First death in the uk was on 5th March, isolation and social distancing measures should have been put in place back in February, masks should have been mandatory back then

This old troupe keeps being trotted out. No other European country did anything back in February. Do you really think that anyone in this country would have accepted SD and masks back then?

A lot of European countries had locked down before mid March (so by 12th, 13th), and e.g. Greece had restricted mass gatherings by the end of Feb.

We were noticeably slow, I remember talking about it every day at work for quite a while, and the dates are memorable due to some things going on at home that mean I'm not just remembering the timeframe wrongly!

I watched the crowds at Cheltenham like , it just seemed like the wrong call at the time.

[quote toohotz]@Sakura7 so when would you have got the country to lockdown & how would you have enforced it? [/quote]
Undoubtedly enforcement is harder for the UK as the police have been very badly cut in recent years

“People who say "a different government/Labour couldn't have done any better" are completely ignoring the fact that just about every government in Europe has done better. Much better. “

Exactly!

Threads like this seem to assume that this pandemic is over and it isn't by a long way. Spain was very smug about locking their DCs away for weeks with their "proper" lockdown but now have daily cases in excess of those they had pre-lockdown. The Australian second wave is bigger than the first that never really got going and there is a similar story in HK etc. Even the numbers in Germany are increasing.

We are still in the middle of a pandemic, 880 people caught covid yesterday and 120 died. Despite this there is a huge outcry when the govt announces emergency local lockdowns in the covid hotspots. It is far too early to say who did what right and I think that will take at least another year even with a vaccine. But threads like this and the reaction to emergency lockdowns shows me that far too many people think this is over.

@labyrinthloafer even before the police were cut how would you enforce that on 66m? We do live in a democracy.

For all those who were convinced we could have locked down earlier by explaining things more how do you explain that now after 50k deaths people still aren't wearing masks, are flying to Spain for holidays, are complaining about local lockdowns, not socially distancing etc?

Anyone???

@toohotz By mid March at the latest, like the rest of Europe did. I really don't understand this argument that it would have been impossible to get the British public to comply any earlier than 23rd March. I remember the week before that there was a lot of commentary about how the UK was taking a very different approach and a large section of the public were worried about the inaction.

Interesting that you've decided my question above about analysing the data in comparison to other countries is irrelevant. I think it's very relevant to this thread as it gives a clear indicator of the success (or not) of the approach taken in terms of actual results (i.e. case numbers and deaths). That you won't answer it speaks volumes.

Who said I wouldn't answer? You interjected on one of my posts replying to someone else & I'd like you to answer first, surely that's fair?

* I really don't understand this argument that it would have been impossible to get the British public to comply any earlier than 23rd March.

Even with the evidence that after 50k deaths some people still aren't following guidelines?

What date in March? and how would you enforce it?

@labyrinthloafer yes definitely Blair Brown or Starmer would have been better but it wasn't them on the last ballot box

[quote Uhoh2020]@labyrinthloafer yes definitely Blair Brown or Starmer would have been better but it wasn't them on the last ballot box[/quote]
That may possibly be the case but as PP said they weren't an option on the ballot box.

The alternative on the ballot box was a leader who, when faced with the biggest single event in the U.K.(post war/pre Covid) spent 3 years sitting on the fence and rather than having Dominic Cummings as the so called 'puppetmaster" we'd have Len McClusky!

WWJD (what would Jeremy do)?

Now that would have been a shitshow.

Given how they felt about schools being open and women in general I doubt there would have been keyworker childchare at all and women would have been thrown right under the bus.

Interesting post @LemonTT it would be interesting how NI managed care homes, I lost a relative in one.

Just found this article.

www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/covid-19-positive-patients-sent-18698650

I guess given we're talking hypothetical, we can talk about any other PMs we want.

It speaks volumes that the conservative party are still banging on about Corbyn - and that is because the only thing making Johnson look good was how bad Corbyn was.

When neither of them could string a sentence together in the commons, Johnson came out on top. Now against Starmer, Johnson sounds incoherent and pretty juvenile.

The only things they say about Starmer is he's into details and is a lawyer. It's hardly the same killer blow they had against Corbyn. The key to analysing how Johnson is doing is what his own MPs think. And quite a few of them are already talking about replacing him before the next election. Because he's poor at his job.

@Sakura7

That wasn't the discussion we were having. My point has always been how would you have made people accept lockdown before they chose it.

Other countries managed it. Why do you think Britain is different?

The UK is different. In many ways, that’s why different national states have different types of government, politics and leadership.

A significant amount of people in the US didn’t accept lockdown. They are different. Not all of them but more of them have different values than Europeans.

People in East Asian countries accept more intrusion than we do.

@tabulahrasa

“People who say "a different government/Labour couldn't have done any better" are completely ignoring the fact that just about every government in Europe has done better. Much better. “

Exactly!

But Nicola Sturgeon’s government didn’t.

There were posters on other threads saying we should have locked down like China did, because that was actually an option.

Such a lack of critical thinking.

The trouble most of the decisions the government made in the lead up to lockdown were based on the wishes of their donors and their wish not to cooperate in any way with Europe ahead of Brexit negotiations. Hence major Conservative party donor, the Jockey Club, got to hold the races, which generate masses of tax revenue for the government.
Plus the government refused to join in 3 programmes of PPE procurement organised by Europe, but also did not take any steps to procure or manufacture enough of our own.
Britain is actually reputed to be very law-abiding, e.g. queueing. The tosh about the British being too unruly and ill-disciplined to obey lockdown was really about BJ and DC and their libertarian ideas, not about the British people.