Increase in Child Hospitalisations in Florida

[ClimbDad]

In February we saw what was happening in the rest of the world and some believed it wouldn’t happen here.

We can see what’s happening in America. Children are being infected at a worrying rate and hospitalised.

Make no mistake, if schools open with normal class sizes, without masks for all, this airborne, respiratory virus will do the same thing here.

Positive thinking won’t protect us. If you genuinely want schools to stay open during flu season, you’ll stop saying, “Don’t be so negative,” and will instead do something practical to protect yourselves, your children and school staff. Masks reduce transmission. Send kids back to school without them, and you will help ensure schools are closed again by November.

This virus is perfectly predictable. Stop expecting it to be kind to us.

www.cnn.com/2020/07/27/health/florida-covid-children-hospitalizations/index.html

@IrmaFayLear

Just as there may be posters who play down the situation, we have a number of posters who have an agenda in the other direction.

What does ClimbDad actually want? It seems from the repeated subject matter of his threads that he does not want schools to reopen and it is his mission to scare parents. Why is this? I am a scared parent, but no school again ever if there is no vaccine? I can’t support that.

And HearHooves poster is determined upon self-preservation at all costs, which to her involves everyone staying in for ever (presumably exempting delivery drivers/power workers/manufacturers/broadband suppliers/hospital staff etc).

No it doesn't at all. My dh is actually one of those service providers you are talking about.

My view is that caution is needed because we know so little about this virus - about how it is transmitted, about who is susceptible, about how infectious it is, about the infection fatality rate, about long term health implications for those that survive it. Just when scientists think they understand something new studies come along that change it (airborne Vs non airborne is a case in point).

Yet so many posters on here just want to take the view that wishing it's all over will make it true. People rushing out to pubs, off on holiday, arranging multiple play dates, demanding that schools open as normal with no precautions - it's just ridiculous at a time when there is a pandemic sweeping the world and one that scientists know so little about and that keeps surprising them.

I find it so unsettling that parents aren't worried about the latest figures coming out of Florida. 20,000 children infected in 3 months and now 10,000 children infected in eight days? How is that not a cause for concern? What is that showing? Why has it happened?

But no, apparently posters here find it reassuring. Only 300 children were hospitalised and 5 died so apparently no need to be concerned.

I hope that is being allowed for properly in secondary schools planning

I hope parents are seriously discussing the issues with their secondary school children and laying down the law in terms of what they consider acceptable behaviour. Surely it is parents who need to be taking responsibility for keeping their children safe?

Secondary schools are following the guidelines given to them by the Government. What else do you expect them to do?

Schools will not be covid-safe environments for either students or school staff. They can't be. I am struggling to understand why so many people don't seem to understand that.

Positive thinking won’t protect us. If you genuinely want schools to stay open during flu season, you’ll stop saying, “Don’t be so negative,” and will instead do something practical

See, ClimbDad, this is why people roll their eyes at you.

Here in Scotland we have gone for the approach of suppressing the virus and squashing down community transmission, so that schools can reopen safely. As a result we have very very low rates of transmission (three cases yesterday). So yes, I am content to have my children go back to school here, in a way that I wouldn’t be if we lived somewhere like Florida where the virus is everywhere.

And yet, you don’t see a distinction. Not between somewhere like Florida and somewhere like Scotland; not between ‘positive thinking’ and taking actual practical steps to control the virus. As far as you’re concerned, you’re the only one taking this seriously and everyone else is flitting about ignoring the virus.

What is it you actually want? What practical things do you want people to do that people are not already doing? I’ve seen people ask you this before and you just said vague things about people not being willing to make any changes to their lives before stripping off the thread. But people have made massive changes to their lives already, most are continuing to do so. What is it you want the people you’re speaking to to actually do?

"But no, apparently posters here find it reassuring. Only 300 children were hospitalised and 5 died so apparently no need to be concerned."

If you are referring to me that isn't fair. We can't make the virus go away, I don't want it to be here. Sadly we can't stop children being infected. What I said was that GIVEN THE SITUATION (which is shit!!) I am thankful that such a low % needed to go to hospital. I am relieved children are not hospitalised at the same rate as adults. It could be much worse, and would be much worse for kids if this was a pandemic flu.

It does show kids are infected but I thought we knew that

If everyone knows that, why are people refusing to accept the need for infection control measures in schools then? Do people not care if other children are infected, if vulnerable children are infected, if children go home and infect vulnerable family members, if teachers catch it, if vulnerable teachers catch it, if teachers infect vulnerable family members? Because parents demanding no infection control measures in schools only makes sense if they believe children can't catch it or if they couldn't care less about other people catching it.

The fact that less than 1% needed seen in hospital shows that for 99+% it was mild
Is that the same mild that has left adults with heart and lung damage and neurological conditions? All mild meant was "not admitted to hospital".

I don't know the answers, its not easy. I am obviously concerned my kids bring it home but by this point I am willing to take the risk to have my kids at school,

You can be willing to take a risk for your children but in doing so you are insisting that staff also have to take a greater risk. Also, the hard line approach, that all children have to go back or parents will be fined, means that parents are being forced to take that risk and for vulnerable children that risk will be much higher.

GoldenOmber

Has Scotland implemented travel bans or quarantine for people returning from certain countries? Only the attempt to eradicate this only works if you also stop new cases from arriving into the country.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras
I find it so unsettling that parents aren't worried about the latest figures coming out of Florida. 20,000 children infected in 3 months and now 10,000 children infected in eight days? How is that not a cause for concern? What is that showing? Why has it happened?

What is happening is the same as before. In that same time period Florida recorded (according to worldometer) 86537 new cases. The new cases recorded for children in that time was 7980 (according to that CNN article - not 10000) As a % that is 9.22% of the total, and that is perfectly in keeping with the overall number of cases v number of cases in children ie less than 10%. What has happened in Florida is that infection rates are running extremely high right now for everyone. It’s not something specific to children and the situation for children hasn’t become suddenly significantly worse over those 8 days - it is following the same pattern as before - that’s what it’s showing.

Has Scotland implemented travel bans or quarantine for people returning from certain countries?

Yes.

Yes, I would say the main thing the Florida situation is showing is the horrendously negligent approach that their state and federal government have taken to the pandemic. Not some previously unknown danger specific to children.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

It does show kids are infected but I thought we knew that

If everyone knows that, why are people refusing to accept the need for infection control measures in schools then? Do people not care if other children are infected, if vulnerable children are infected, if children go home and infect vulnerable family members, if teachers catch it, if vulnerable teachers catch it, if teachers infect vulnerable family members? Because parents demanding no infection control measures in schools only makes sense if they believe children can't catch it or if they couldn't care less about other people catching it.

The fact that less than 1% needed seen in hospital shows that for 99+% it was mild
Is that the same mild that has left adults with heart and lung damage and neurological conditions? All mild meant was "not admitted to hospital".

I don't know the answers, its not easy. I am obviously concerned my kids bring it home but by this point I am willing to take the risk to have my kids at school,

You can be willing to take a risk for your children but in doing so you are insisting that staff also have to take a greater risk. Also, the hard line approach, that all children have to go back or parents will be fined, means that parents are being forced to take that risk and for vulnerable children that risk will be much higher.

Why are you looking for an argument? You go to the nth degree on every thread to anyone who has a different opinion to you! What is your solution then? Keep them home? We dont know if there is any long term effects for kids. You agree none have been reported so its speculation at this point. As for I am putting staff at risk, I am not a bad person for wanting my children to go to school. I am a primary school teacher myself and will be back at work soon, I appreciate I will be at risk but what is the alternative? I do not want my primary kids in masks. Part time is not feasible for families who rely on the wage of 2 parents, or single working parents. There needs to be a balance. I am worried about Covid. But it needs to be balanced against other factors. Covid is not the only issue for families!

[quote MarcelineMissouri]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras
I find it so unsettling that parents aren't worried about the latest figures coming out of Florida. 20,000 children infected in 3 months and now 10,000 children infected in eight days? How is that not a cause for concern? What is that showing? Why has it happened?

What is happening is the same as before. In that same time period Florida recorded (according to worldometer) 86537 new cases. The new cases recorded for children in that time was 7980 (according to that CNN article - not 10000) As a % that is 9.22% of the total, and that is perfectly in keeping with the overall number of cases v number of cases in children ie less than 10%. What has happened in Florida is that infection rates are running extremely high right now for everyone. It’s not something specific to children and the situation for children hasn’t become suddenly significantly worse over those 8 days - it is following the same pattern as before - that’s what it’s showing.[/quote]
Why are infection rates surging? Presumably because lockdown has ended and people are starting to associate again. Why won't that happen here?

@GoldenOmber

Yes, I would say the main thing the Florida situation is showing is the horrendously negligent approach that their state and federal government have taken to the pandemic. Not some previously unknown danger specific to children.

What haven't they done that the UK government has done? How is our government behaving differently?

What haven't they done that the UK government has done? How is our government behaving differently?

A huge amount, but in short - less of a lockdown to start with, starting to reopen when community transmission was still fairly high, inadequate testing. That is why they are seeing this kind of situation and places like Taiwan, Germany, Norway are not.

And I know you’ll say “but we’re not like Germany/Norway/Taiwan!” but we’re not like Florida either. Places have to make decisions based on local data and local information. We can’t keep schools closed indefinitely all over the world just because Florida have cocked things up.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras please see @GoldenOmber last post for a succinct description of what is happening in Florida!

Yes they reopened, they opened way too soon, their lockdown barely lasted a month, didn’t get things under control to any degree and just went in all guns blazing. In addition their governor is v pro Trump and seems disinclined to make any big changes that might actually help. They also have major problems with availability of testing and turnaround time on results - anything from 3 days to 3 weeks to find out. That’s not what is happening here, whatever your view of how the government have or are handling things. Hopefully we will be following those in Europe with bumps along the way rather than a disaster like Florida. Having said that they do finally appear to be on a downward trend - let’s hope it continues.

I think it is unfair to pile on to climbdad for pointing out that children do get infected by covid. There are long term effects for some people and the severity of thesehsve not been determined.

There does seem to be a widespread belief (on Mumsnet) at least that children are at low risk of the disease ( which statistically they are) but also that they do not pass on the disease.

This was a common statement on the thread on masks in schools and there was an article in the times about lack of documentated cases.

This is a dangerous assertion when the facts on this area are uncertain. It is becoming clearer that children do pass on the disease and even if they are less likely to do so, this might not matter if infection control measures in schools are ineffective.

Ultimately we will find out one way or the other by the end of October but if I am concerned for older colleagues and myself and if I was a vulnerable child even more so. They won't have any ppe or SD protection at all. It does not feel reassuring to feel like a guinea pig.

I don't see parliament deciding that each party can form their own bubble but socially distance from each other where possible, enter the building at different times, and telling themselves that ppe should not be worn because their ability to communicate will be compromised. At the same time the education department put a quote out today how the guidance massively reduced risk. I suppose it does if you apply the logic that our track and trace is world beating.

Sorry that was a cross post, I mean GoldOmbers previous post to the one above!

What is your solution then? Keep them home?

No. You criticise me for taking it to the nth degree but are doing it yourself. Why is it all or nothing?

We know what works - social distancing, hand washing, wearing masks. That's what is needed in order to keep infection rates low. Anything else, in my opinion, is negligent.

What protection is in place for vulnerable teachers and students? Or for pupils who have vulnerable parents or siblings?

I see thread after thread here with people citing the Equality Act and how it's disability discrimination to ask someone why they aren't wearing a mask and yet seemingly it isn't discrimination to insist that a pupil or teacher who is vulnerable due to a health condition must risk being exposed to a potentially fatal disease without protection that is compulsory in many other settings?

I think it is unfair to pile on to climbdad for pointing out that children do get infected by covid.

That isn’t why people have a problem with ClimbDads threads.

So 1% of the children were hospitalised? 30,000 cases, 300 hospitalised

300 too many, surely? And of those 300, it is probably safe to assume that at least some of them had underlying conditions. Do you have a child with an underlying condition? You know that parents are not able to remove their child with an underlying condition from school in Septmeber unless they deregister and home school? I certainly can't afford to do that so my vulnerable child will have to go to school. I am not for one minute suggesting everything should stop for a minority but there is absolutely no consideration for the minority at the current time and the potential impact on them. I can see the MN threads now - oh well, it's only the children with asthma/type 1/who were obese/who had some other condition that are dying, so it doesn't apply to me and mine.

ALL deaths matter. No parent should currently be in fear of what might happen to our children once school returns and many of us right now are living with that. Double the fear in my case because as a teacher, I know that any attempt at social distancing and bubbles etc. etc. is just putting a fancy cherry on top of a bloody mess underneath.

Ibake Tue 28-Jul-20 10:24:34
What would you do if we discovered that the reason kids have been mostly asymptomatic or mild is because their immune system was robust due to their T cells being high, because they previously existed in an environment of coughs and colds (school).

Then we discover that we've weakened their immune systems by taking them out of the very environment that normally helps them to be strong. Colds are a coronavirus and that is one of the reasons that the T cell argument is gaining traction.

We don't know either way of course but the argument does have some scientific validity. It would be awful if parents, thinking they're keeping their kids safe actually make them more vulnerable to a stronger dose of covid.

Kids get bugs, most shake them off, they have the building blocks of strong immune systems, however they can't develop immunity to anything if they are not exposed to it. Over protecting them could easily have the outcome of lowering their immunity not only to Covid but to the many other viruses that they are routinely exposed to and that help them to build a health immune system.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

What is your solution then? Keep them home?

No. You criticise me for taking it to the nth degree but are doing it yourself. Why is it all or nothing?

We know what works - social distancing, hand washing, wearing masks. That's what is needed in order to keep infection rates low. Anything else, in my opinion, is negligent.

What protection is in place for vulnerable teachers and students? Or for pupils who have vulnerable parents or siblings?

I see thread after thread here with people citing the Equality Act and how it's disability discrimination to ask someone why they aren't wearing a mask and yet seemingly it isn't discrimination to insist that a pupil or teacher who is vulnerable due to a health condition must risk being exposed to a potentially fatal disease without protection that is compulsory in many other settings?

I agree that teachers should be allowed masks, I cant see the issue with that at all. Maybe secondary pupils too although expecting a teenager to wear a mask for 6 hours and wear it correctly is a big ask. Clearly primary children cannot wear masks and I as an early years teacher would choose not to wear one alot of the time as how can you teach phonics with children not being able to see your mouth? Maybe visors are the answer. Social distancing could only work with smaller classes but can you imagine the chaos if the government announced part time schooling? Who will look after my kids? What about my job? If part time was announced I would have no choice but to leave my job, but would I even be allowed to leave without working my terms notice? We rely on both wages to pay our bills. The cost of living relies on both wages for many families now. I am not minimising covid, it worries me alot. But we need to be rational and remember that covid is not the only issue to be considered.

300 too many, surely?

Yes absolutely 300 too many. But I don’t think anyone’s saying that 300 hospitalised children is fine and dandy. Rather, that it’s what we would expect given the very very high infection rate in somewhere like Florida, so it’s not (as the OP seems to present it) some new information about danger to children specifically.

We dont know if there is any long term effects for kids. You agree none have been reported so its speculation at this point.

It's not speculation, it's being open minded to the possibility that there could be long term effects and that until they know for sure the only sensible course is one of caution.

The absence of information doesn't mean that it isn't happening it could mean it hasn't been looked for.

What is the incidence of long term effects in adults? I don't see that being discussed too much either.

What would you rather, just carry on regardless until the information comes to light and then it's too late to do anything about it?

"Do people not care if other children are infected, if vulnerable children are infected, if children go home and infect vulnerable family members, if teachers catch it, if vulnerable teachers catch it, if teachers infect vulnerable family members"

The answer to this is no, they dont. The majority of people who dont consider this, dont have vulnerable in their family, so dont care. They simply want their kids back.

@GoldenOmber

300 too many, surely?

Yes absolutely 300 too many. But I don’t think anyone’s saying that 300 hospitalised children is fine and dandy. Rather, that it’s what we would expect given the very very high infection rate in somewhere like Florida, so it’s not (as the OP seems to present it) some new information about danger to children specifically.

Yes exactly this. It is sad that 1% have been hospitalised, and I said it could easily be one of my kids. Nobody is saying it is ok 300 were hospitalised, but compared to 30,000 confirmed cases, and there will be loads not confirmed, it is a small amount. In the context of a pandemic, this is low numbers and shows that children are at low risk. It is a fact that other viruses hospitalise kids at higher rates. This is not dismissing those 300 kids, it is just being rational about the data we have.