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Are we a couple of weeks behind Spain and France?

528 replies

BKCRMP · 25/07/2020 19:30

If Spain is v.likely in a second wave and France not far behind them does that mean we are also heading straight in to one again?

Will schools open regardless this September?

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MarcelineMissouri · 27/07/2020 08:46

[quote SheepandCow]@MarcelineMissouri regardless of how deaths have been recorded we have more excess deaths than any other European country.[/quote]
Im not disputing that at all, but in terms of decisions like reimposing quarantine what matters is the situation NOW, not deaths from previous months.

Oaktree55 · 27/07/2020 08:48

“The paper you are talking about was 5% cross reactive antobodies in adults. Not t cells. T cell studies show far higher % in adults but nobody knows what that means in terms of protection”

Apologies yes antibodies was typing from memory. Florian Krammer wrote an interesting piece about T Cells though which I now can’t find.

Newgirls · 27/07/2020 08:54

‘Our excess deaths...’

Our July figs are actually LOWER than last year. People are being very selective about which data they look at! Care home figs are horrific but other fatalities eg road traffic mean that overall figs are DOWN.

If actual teachers on here are not happy with bubbles then I hope more steps can be taken to support them. Masks etc may still happen. And also do consider moving to tutoring which is a growth area. But doom mongering on here is a waste of time.

MRex · 27/07/2020 09:02

People really need to stop viewing quarantine as some sort of punishment between countries. Ireland has a tiny list of countries exempted that doesn't include mainland Britain, that isn't offensive, it's simply because their cases are lower than ours and they want to keep it that way. Once Britain's cases are low enough, we'll be added to their list. Spain has far higher cases and community spread than Britain, it's been growing quickly and is responsible for importing cases here, therefore the right thing to do is move to quarantine. Once they're (hopefully quickly) back on top of things, that restriction can be lifted so they're back on the exempt list. Countries with extremely poor tracking (Romania, most of Africa etc) that look like "low cases" have also not been given exemption; politically that should be more difficult to handle than Spain where we actually have a good idea of the case volumes, because the government is effectively saying "we don't believe you". Yet nobody seems to have an issue, because they don't holiday in Romania or Tanzania, all the outrage is simply about personal inconvenience because Spain is cheap and nice to holiday in.

RedToothBrush · 27/07/2020 09:48

The problem with increased community spread in Spain for the UK is that we have an issue with being able to contact trace.

In the uk we are starting to get to grips with where cases are and how they are spreading.

Parts of Spain currently have an R rate of 2.5. It suggests that Spain is not on top of track and tracing quickly enough or effectively enough. That will be a concern for the uk authorities more thsn anything else.

More importantly though there will be a bigger issue of coordination and cooperation of trace and track between Spain and the UK. We dont have 'eyes on' whats happening directly on the ground in Spain and the Spanish dont have an easy way to warn British holiday makers who are transient and staying at an address which is not their registered home address.

That means even if the number of cases in the uk is exactly the same as the number of cases in Spain, if someone comes into contact with covid-19 in spain its more problematic than if they come into contact with it in the UK.

Why?

Because we have a new unidentified cluster popping up in the uk without a traceable chain of contacts and / or its much more difficult for the Spanish authorities to alert holiday making Brits that they have been exposed. And thats without adding in language issues.

It highlights the issue of their not being a universal track and trace system throughout Europe (or throughout the world for that matter) as national issues have overridden the health one (in some cases quite rightly, in others less so).

It also highlights the fact that tourism has additional difficulties when it comes to track and trace. Large numbers of people moving in short spaces of time without an easy way to be contacted quickly will delay contact tracing, which allows covid-19 to spread more before its picked up.

Now we know covid-19 is circulating, this is our ongoing issue.

Places which are economically deprived are more vulnerable to Covid-19 but its places where the more affluent move around widely which allows its undetected spread and new clusters to pop up.

It does mean that tourist destinations are going to have particular problems that no one has really talked about or is thinking about how we resolve on an international basis.

International cooperation has been the problem throughout the crisis and there has been far too much resistance to confronting the issue. Instead weve all indulged in a blame game and tried to suppress the problem to various degrees.

RedToothBrush · 27/07/2020 10:08

Fred is exposed to covid-19 in the uk from his colleague Joe. His employer knows his address and can ensure he is contacted easily and quickly if outside work. If Fred goes to the pub in the uk he is supposed to give his contact details - in many cases people remain in their local community to go to the pub / restaurant anyway.

Fred is exposed to covid-19 in the uk from Pablo in a bar in Spain. Even if the bar has taken contact details its problematic. Has Fred left his home contact details, his mobile phone or details of where he is staying in Spain? If its home contact details, he cant be traced until he returns to the uk. If its his mobile phone he might not have it on nor answer it whilst on holiday. If its his hotel number, then the hotel may not be able to get the message to him straight away or he may have left the hotel to return to the uk by the time he is traced. There are also language issued.

All this adds up to additional barriers to the quick, efficient and effective management of track and trace.

This will also be an issue for tourist destinations in the uk to a certain extent. But without the language barrier nor an international cooperation issue.

Bubbles in schools are also less about containing transmission and trying to reduce track and trace issues as much as possible. People think its about reducing transmission and protecting people that way, but thats not the purpose of bubbles come September.

RedToothBrush · 27/07/2020 10:11

Short version of above: our policy now is centred around quick track and trace rather than more suppression of the virus. Our management strategy has shifted.

Oaktree55 · 27/07/2020 10:14

Thank you very informative. Do you not think though if Asian countries struggle with track and trace, even with their superior systems and a greater public compliance, the U.K. is going to fail given current set up?

labyrinthloafer · 27/07/2020 10:22

@RedToothBrush

Short version of above: our policy now is centred around quick track and trace rather than more suppression of the virus. Our management strategy has shifted.
Which makes it rather a problem our tracing system is proving so shit Angry
RedToothBrush · 27/07/2020 10:52

@Oaktree55

Thank you very informative. Do you not think though if Asian countries struggle with track and trace, even with their superior systems and a greater public compliance, the U.K. is going to fail given current set up?
Its already failing in certain places.

It relies on people on the telephone contacting other people on the telephone.

This is one of the reasons why there is currently a problem in Blackburn. A low track and trace rate.

They are finding they cant contact everyone easily because not everyone has a telephone in the community. It has a particularly high deprivation rating and number of non english speaking residents.

Where track and trace has been most effective around the world they have teams who are able to go door knocking as well as contacting via phone or email. We dont have this ability with the way we've set up track and trace.

For the most part our system will work reasonably well where people remain within their local communities. We know that deprived communities have less mobility anyway and that contact between deprived areas and wealthier areas is less than in other European countries 'because politics' and inequality.

My faith in our system to be able to cope with track and trace if we see an upsurge in cases is very limited for this reason (Blackburn has already brought in some localised restrictions precisely for this reason though as yet hasnt gone as far as Leicester with a full local lockdown). And its why I am expecting us to start seeing more problems around October half term.

The other thing is that wealthier communities tend to have more people with occupations where they can quarantine (potentially higher compliance rates).

Younger communities and wealthier communities are more mobile but they are less susceptible to serious cases of the virus, so the virus may circulate undetected longer in these areas, and may only be picked up when someone from an older or more deprived background is exposed. But it means that certain communities will have more 'freedom from consequences' than others may.

I think what we will see is a pattern developing along these lines in time, because I dont think our system is as good as it needs to be.

My feeling is ultimately the government see track and trace as a stop gap rather than a solution though.

The goal is to push through the vaccine asap in the uk (from what i hear privately through friends and friends of friends as well as through the media, is this is going reasonably well). I think the hope was October but its going to be January in a best case scenario before this realistically starts and then we need to add in distribution time.

I think that means, for all Johnson's optimism of being back to normal for November in time for Christmas it could be pretty bumpy for some - though probably not all - and thats going to be along age / deprivation lines.

I tend to frame this in terms of the weaknesses in our track and trace system (and other policies) now because thats how our policy is being driven now rather than via suppression.

I think its worthy to note here comments about the ineffectiveness of quarantine from Spain and how its not being enforced. They kind of miss the mark. The point of the quarantine policy for the uk isnt about stopping the spread from people returning, its about deterring people from going to Spain in the first place...

tootyfruitypickle · 27/07/2020 10:58

They need to open schools even if we go back into lockdown. Then take a regional approach and only close if absolutely essential. Need to put schools at front of policy now .

Oaktree55 · 27/07/2020 11:04

Thank you for that. Very interesting. I too had wondered if the Gov are placing everything on the vaccine silver bullet. I did see the Phase III for Oxford Vaccine ends officially Aug 21, but I know nothing about the ability for emergency use etc. I know there will likely be several vaccines though at some point. Apparently the Oxford one will only work as a first vaccine though and we’d all require a different vaccine as a booster. Interesting times ahead.

SheepandCow · 27/07/2020 11:12

@RedToothBrush Your posts make a lot of sense.

Do you think places like London will be particularly vulnerable again? With the major transport hub airports and it's somewhere, where wealthy and deprived live close together.

Separately, I think we're going to see a lot of vulnerable people put at great risk if evictions resume just as we hit the colder weather and the predicted second wave. I really hope vulnerable private renters will be protected.

RedToothBrush · 27/07/2020 11:41

London, potentially is going to be a problem again BUT some of the more deprived areas have already been hit hard, so i think we have to hope that this will offset problems and offer some protection.

I think we need to consider who now may have some immunity too. The number of key workers who caught it early, particularly in London, whilst not offering herd immunity may offer a degree of protection too. Key workers have a high number of social contacts - particularly with more vulnerable individuals - so if they now have greater immunity, they might slow the spread too.

It depends on how long antibodies offer some immunity which is an unknown quantity.

I should add from what we know in terms of antibody testing, nhs workers have had covid-19 in higher numbers than the general population and theyve found that some who have tested positive for COVID-19 have come back negative or with very few antibodies in an antibody test, so this leaves some question marks. As does the research into T cell immunity which suggests that for every person with antibodies, 2 people are showing signs of t cell immunity. We dont know enough about this, but its possible that people with different ancestry may have different levels of immunity for this reason too.

London also has a younger population to many other parts of the uk though. London is also better served if you centralised health services than more provisional areas. Its health services have had a baptism of fire and now have greater expertise in caring for those with covid-19 than perhaps exists in other parts of the country - that may also reflect in survival and complication rates.

This is why its not regarded as somewhere which is on the list of places most at risk.

So i can see arguments for and against London being an issue.

Going forward I see issues being linked more to provincial areas in part because of this centralised approach to the crisis and how local authorities have now been put in charge of management of restrictions.

A lot of the most deprived communities have the least resources at a local level to cope with localised restrictions. Local councils are not a level playing field and many are already on the verge of bankruptcy. Luton is one place that is financially screwed atm (ironically in part due to its dependence on the airport filling the councils coffers).

As i say the things to keep an eye on: deprivation and provisional issues.

This also links back to a vaccine.

What no one is talking about in terms of the vaccine is how quickly they will be able to distribute and administer it.

The manufacture of possible vaccines is being done pre-emptively before the effectiveness of each possible vaccine has been proved which will save time.

But this means there has been expense invested already. We might not necessarily get the best vaccine out the end, at least initially. It might have limited effectiveness. But this might be preferable to the alternative in the short term.

Whats worrying me more is the logistics and management of administering a vaccine though.

Is it going to be done through GPs or more centralised to increase capacity?

So far weve seen a very centralised approach and in general weve seen a move to more centralised healthcare (cos its cheaper to provide).

The flip side to this is that those from deprived communities with the less mobility have less access to healthcare. And my fear is the same will happen with a vaccine.

My suspicion is that we will, once again, see a real inequality and delay to getting a vaccine for some of those who are a priority. I can see London getting the vaccine sooner than the rest of the country purely from this logistical point of view.

RedToothBrush · 27/07/2020 11:45

Fwiw i think at this point, other issues to do with economics will find themselves higher up the political agenda in the coming months, with management of covid itself dropping unless we see very significant spikes in cases domestically.

Right now if you watch the news the focus is on people being pissed off that their holiday is ruined rather than concern about protecting the NHS or the vulnerable.

Jeremyironsnothing · 27/07/2020 12:00

Some very interesting points I hadn't yet considered.

MarshaBradyo · 27/07/2020 12:03

I agree economic will become more pressing, not least because it is going to get worse as more companies feel the strain, and furlough ends.

The T cell information is great.

Does anyone know on what they base proportion data? Last I heard was 8% across U.K., higher in London. How do they work it out

labyrinthloafer · 27/07/2020 12:06

If they are just going to let us bump along until - or rather if - we get a vaccine, that is a negligent policy imo.

Oaktree55 · 27/07/2020 12:15

Obviously I’m not an expert but I do worry this T Cell hope is being overblown. I do trust this guy Florian Krammer and he’s always played it down 🤷🏽‍♀️

mobile.twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1283234240910557184

Oaktree55 · 27/07/2020 12:17

Sorry didn’t link that v well you need to open whole thread. Happy to be corrected!

labyrinthloafer · 27/07/2020 12:29

My feeling is there is a significant portion of society who have a vested interest in making us feel we will get 'back to normal' soon. The last thing they want to do is actually make any changes.

No one has a fricking clue what will happen and that's a hard place psychologically for a nation.

My preference would be move forwards, it's just my way.

Those happy with the status quo will favour holding out for a vaccine and not changing too much.

The vaccines are all a bit jam tomorrow and we are here right now. We need to deal with what's in front of us - which is the fact that England's cases and transmissions are stubbornly higher than anyone should be happy with, and we have a serious risk over winter.

Of course invest in vaccine research - as we are, and rightly at world leading levels - but also drop the ideological resistance to policy activity be that would cut cases now, so go back to basics - distancing, masks, hygiene, testing, tracing. None of these are being done well in England - and therefore for all the talk of t-cells and vaccines, I am worried about winter.

Oaktree55 · 27/07/2020 12:35

Yes good point. The Gov are basing policy on the hope of a vaccine shortly really. Do you follow this advisor to Scotland? She’s very good imo.

mobile.twitter.com/devisridhar

nellodee · 27/07/2020 12:37

One of my concerns is whether we will have sufficient testing capacity to deal with anyone presenting with covid symptoms. I worry that we will return to a situation where people will not be tested on symptoms alone but will need to evidence contact with a known case. Does anyone know how much spare capacity we have at the moment?

MarshaBradyo · 27/07/2020 12:38

I’m not sure they are. I think they are basing it on economic realities, which they should consider.

If it takes a long time for a vaccine they still can’t wait for it to do what is happening. Trying to increase spending and stimulate economy.

MarshaBradyo · 27/07/2020 12:40

That was re basing policy on getting a vaccine shortly.