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Are we a couple of weeks behind Spain and France?

528 replies

BKCRMP · 25/07/2020 19:30

If Spain is v.likely in a second wave and France not far behind them does that mean we are also heading straight in to one again?

Will schools open regardless this September?

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labyrinthloafer · 26/07/2020 21:06

Bubbles are not fine.

Schools in Spain, Germany etc will have social distancing. No one is saying they should be isolated.

Bubbles are not fine at all.

Explain to me why a 17 or 18 year old at work or FE college needs to distance, but one in school doesn't. The answer is they both need to but the government CBA to work it out for schools.

CallmeAngelina · 26/07/2020 21:17

I trust my local school and community to do their best for the sake of our kids mental and physical health. If you don’t then stay at home.

Of course schools will do their best. Unfortunately, I can't stay at home, as I'm one of the very people who will be on site, trying to make it as safe as possible for you children, but please don't be under any illusions that bubbles are safe. They're a panacea to make parents feel better, that's all.

labyrinthloafer · 26/07/2020 21:24

Also schools do their best within the guidance, if the guidance is shit, however hard they try there's not much they can really do.

The guidance should have included social distancing in secondary schools.

IceCreamAndCandyfloss · 26/07/2020 21:27

@labyrinthloafer

Also schools do their best within the guidance, if the guidance is shit, however hard they try there's not much they can really do.

The guidance should have included social distancing in secondary schools.

And in primary too.

The staff and families of everyone deserve to be kept as safe as possible.

Also the bubble should pop as soon as someone has symptoms, not when there are two proven cases as by that point it will have spread.

tigger1001 · 26/07/2020 21:35

@Oaktree55

Everyone talking about mental health issues of kids. Is this not indicative of our society? Hong Kong schools have been shut since late Jan (opened briefly recently likely to no open again due to spike). I have a friend in HK. There’s no talk of mental illness/lost education as the kids will catch up, probably with a lot of parental guidance. When did educating children (and their mental health) in the U.K. become the sole responsibility of school? We have to look at how our society is set up surely?
I think it depends on what age kids you are talking about.

My 14 year old is doing subjects at school that I was, quite frankly rubbish at. He is already further on in his education in physics than I achieved at school. I can't teach him this. And I would be doing him a huge disservice by trying to. Biology I was quite good at, but given it's been almost 20 years since I studied it I'm not the best person to teach it.

I want my kids to get the best education they can, and that means being taught by qualified teachers. It's not about absolving parents of their responsibility.

Countdowngeek · 26/07/2020 21:36

Currently in France staying in family home. Although masks are required in indoor spaces, the lack of social distancing is shocking. Tables squished together in restaurants, queues in supermarkets with people breathing down your neck. Not at all surprised that cases are rising. Staying away from public spaces as much as possible whilst here and feel lucky we have our own place where we can enjoy our holiday away from other people. It really makes us appreciate the safety measures that businesses and (most of) the general public in the UK adhere to. This will hopefully help in quashing any further UK outbreaks.

ineedaholidaynow · 26/07/2020 22:34

A lot of European countries have much smaller class sizes than we do, and probably better quality buildings so pupils won't all be crammed together in too small classrooms.

catsarecute · 26/07/2020 23:05

@Quartz2208 would be interested to see where those figures are reported. I agree the figures are a mess, but they're all we have to go with. This is my reference from lockdown day. Do you mean others have been retrospectively added (I agree there probably were more) www.itv.com/news/2020-03-23/coronavirus-bill-death-toll/

@Newgirls yes I have a son in secondary. I've seen the plans for his school and don't think they will keep him (or me) safe.

RedToothBrush · 26/07/2020 23:06

Ive just read the whole of this thread and think theres some nonsense on here and some real omissions that are important to note.

At the start of the thread theres people saying its just like March all over again with Spain and France just ahead of us etc etc.

Its not. Can we just get thst straight.

Back in March the uk hadn't got a clue how many cases we had, we had a complete lack of PPE and we had no idea what we were dealing with and how to treat the disease.

4 months on and things have changed.

We have a much better idea of number of cases. Our track and trace leaves a lot to be desired (and i think its still below where it should be, due to lack of boots on the ground) but we have it and we are picking up outbreaks and where/why they are occurring.

We have PPE available to all health care staff and social care staff who need it. We've a very obvious scandal about how care homes were left exposed and it means we are less likely to expose our most vulnerable in the same way. Plus the unfortunate thing about having so many excess deaths early on is there are fewer vulnerable people who can die of it (we are currently below the normal rate of deaths for this time of year). Our protocols were far too slow to get set up efficiently and work but we do now have them.

The purpose of lockdown in the uk was never to stop the disease and eradicate it. That has been the approach of some other countries but i think that has two negative side effects: the public expectation that because its 'gone' that the crisis was over and almost lulling everyone into a false sense of security. I dont believe eradication was ever likely by the time it was obviously widespread across Europe. The uk approach was merely to slow it down until we were better placed to cope with the disease and manage its effects. Its an approach thats far more realistic.

We are now in a position where death rates are significantly improving as we understand how to treat the disease better. We are able to identify those cases which are most likely to be serious based on symptoms and we have treatments which are helping patients respond better with fewer problems. Its a long way off being an 'effective' treatment but our understanding of it being a vascular disease rather than a pure respiratory one is a huge step forward. We understand better who is more at risk, and why too.

In terms if behavioural change, its a mixed bag with some refusing to follow the guidelines, the government sending mixed messages and businesses and the public failing to trust the information they are given and are remaining cautious. People have changed their habits though. They are mixing in cities less where they can. The most social and mobile people who commuted most are not mixing outside smaller communities in the same way. Thats hugely significant because thats about movement of the disease across the country. Yes we do have people going on holidays now, which might be storing the problem for some weeks time, but people are outside doing that to a much greater degree than normal.

The uk took a 2m rule which is psychologically significant. Other countries took a smaller distance. And whilst weve now reduced it to 1m plus, and lots of people dont understand how much 2m is, lots of people got into a habit under the initial rule which was more cautious than elsewhere and many are still largely doing 2m (or what they think is 2m) where they can.

As adherence gradually does break down we are seeing incidents like the change of quarantine rules to Spain, which will remind us and refocus minds to not be a dick. In someways the rule change isnt just about restricting the number of cases coming into the uk (spain doesn't have a significantly higher number of cases than the uk right now). The rule change also has a psychological affect in reminding people to continue to take the measures seriously and to distance even as thing change back 'to normal'.

Our recovery and return to normal is proving harder for the british to do than elsewhere despite the government telling us too. Our patterns of movement have changed more than a lot of other places in Europe because of how they were before.

I believe parts of Spain have been reported to have an r rate of over 2.5. Weve seen nothing close to this in the uk yet.

Fwiw ive always said i think we will see an uptick in cases in October ish but i dont think its something to panic about just yet. Another couple of months down the line and who knows where we will be in terms of what treatments we will have, if we reflect on the progress weve made so far. Our research has been particularly good and thats a major plus.

We aren't going to have a vaccine ready and being distributed before Christmas, but it will be soon after and we have a good idea who needs it most first.

There is a growing consensus that there is a greater level of natural immunity in the public than previously thought due to t cells and not needing antibodies.

My point is, there is plenty to worry about on this but its still significantly better than the picture in March.

Going forward i think we still have a lot of problems (which aren't currently being acknowledged) and i suspect the reality of a rise in cases to deal with, but i dont believe it will be as frightening as previously as a lot of the fear was about 'the unknown'. Our mentality is also different because of the economic reality and hardship many will be facing. We will have to get on with it as best we can rather than having a blanket lockdown. Things will look different in winter too. Our desire to be outside will drop and our priorities will shift. Even for those who are at risk or anxious.

I dont take a view thats inline with many here. I just dont think it will be as bad as many previously feared. Thats not to say it may not be bloody rough over the winter months and im not sure everyone is psychologically prepared for that because they are already fatigued by it all. I just think its going to be a very different picture of events and issues to round 1 and im not convinced that enough people have got their heads around that yet.

I am more optimistic than i was in terms of covid itself. Im now more concerned about the growing related issues and how this has some months to run its course - with steps backwards - which will come as a shock to, too many.

CountessFrog · 27/07/2020 00:28

Excellent post, red toothbrush

Lovely13 · 27/07/2020 00:47

I have no idea any more. But didn’t I see something that children hardly spread the virus, so schools are ok to open. I am glad mine are grown. Must be so hard for young ones and parents.

scaevola · 27/07/2020 06:53

But didn’t I see something that children hardly spread the virus, so schools are ok to open

You may well have done.

But no-one actually knows that yet. Scientific opinion is divided. They certainly tend to get it considerably more mildly, but their role in transmission less well known. Partly because DC, especially smaller ones, are not generally tested, and they live in families which, at the start of the lockdown, would have had multiple contacts with other people and therefore multiple possible routes of transmission, and no one was established where people were getting infected.

namechangedschoolquery · 27/07/2020 06:55

That's such a helpful post @RedToothBrush.

I am not seeing much change in social distancing (London zone 2). There's no one on public transport and shops are pretty empty.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the impact of having kids off school for any longer will be far too damaging for it to be even contemplated. I think the government know that.

labyrinthloafer · 27/07/2020 07:30

@Lovely13

I have no idea any more. But didn’t I see something that children hardly spread the virus, so schools are ok to open. I am glad mine are grown. Must be so hard for young ones and parents.
Need to separate 'children' into primary and secondary. Didn't S Korea find that ages 10-19 spread it the most?

This 'children don't spread it' seems to me a little like the 'its like flu' line - a comforting platitude to stop parents worrying.

labyrinthloafer · 27/07/2020 07:35

@RedToothBrush We are now in a position where death rates are significantly improving as we understand how to treat the disease better.

From what I have read death rates are mostly falling because it is younger people getting it.

My issue with just being accepting of large numbers catching it is that the system/organ damage some suffer is poorly understood and very risky for those who need to study and work.

We should not be risking everyone's long term health so readily.

Jrobhatch29 · 27/07/2020 07:39

Great post @RedToothBrush thank you!

SheepandCow · 27/07/2020 07:44

Children aren't in schools on their own. Even if they don't catch or spread it as much (the evidence is still unclear) adults - the teachers and support staff - can.

Economically it's difficult to keep schools shut. They've become an essential requirement for working parents. People can't properly return to work unless schools open. We might as well be honest that it's not risk free. However, we can take measures to lower the risk, which include mask wearing and smaller classes.

Nearly47 · 27/07/2020 08:01

Well noted Bedroomdilemma

"I’m a little confused by this. Does the UK not still have the highest daily covid death rate in Europe? So you’re still in your first wave?"
And the government still quarentining people coming from countries that have lower number of cases than here. But people buy into it because deep down they think UK is much better than the likes of France or Spain.

Oaktree55 · 27/07/2020 08:23

Can I just clear two things up. Firstly it’s proven children do catch and spread it. Look at data from States, they are fastest growing age groups.

Secondly re “T Cell magic” there was a paper out last week showing only 5% of adults have cross reactive T Cells (it is yet unknown what if any protection this infers). Children show 60% cross reactivity which MAY explain part of the reason why they often get mild symptoms but they aren’t sure yet but it doesn’t mean they don’t spread it.

Hard hit areas in South America are showing 70% seroprevalence. The U.K. was showing sub 10% back in May. To think that we’re all magically immune when close to 90% here unexposed is wishful thinking as it would not be possible to record 70% seroprevalence if infected people were recovering and not, initially at least, producing detectable antibodies.

Yes they are hopeful that immunity might be considerably longer lasting than the 3 months reported in press but as yet we don’t know how long immunity lasts.

We also as yet don’t know what long term effects are. There are many with symptoms months after contracting.

There is a great virologist Florian Krammer on Twitter if anyone is interested. He provides good updates on immunity/vaccine hopes etc.

I also think the main issues we are facing which could easily kick off exponential growth are airborne spread indoors and a track and trace which is currently poorly performing and may well collapse as numbers grow.

I am sure I will be called a doom mongerer again but I’m afraid this is what the majority of experts are shouting about.

Quartz2208 · 27/07/2020 08:25

@catsarecute www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-daily-deaths/

shows hospital deaths in England and yes deaths are added retrospectively all the time - nowadays the number of deaths stated on a day is on that day at all. Adding in the non hospital setting deaths which just are a mess (those dying sometimes WITH or having had Covid not of).

While it is just a part of it the hospital data for England is at least consistently gained and therefore

This is just England - Scotland/Wales reporting is different

Spain number of cases now is high though - higher than ours surely?

MarcelineMissouri · 27/07/2020 08:29

@Nearly47

Well noted Bedroomdilemma

"I’m a little confused by this. Does the UK not still have the highest daily covid death rate in Europe? So you’re still in your first wave?"
And the government still quarentining people coming from countries that have lower number of cases than here. But people buy into it because deep down they think UK is much better than the likes of France or Spain.

  1. Our daily death figures are currently not accurate, likely to be being overstated by anywhere between 10-40 a day at the moment.
  2. Spain’s daily death figures may well not be accurate as they have had issues with their own reporting.
  3. On July 23rd Spain recorded 2615 new cases. We recorded 769. Spain has a population 20 million lower than us. Spain also has higher cumulative overall totals for cases and cases per million.

It’s not accurate to say their numbers are lower than ours other than in deaths recorded. Their cases are clearly much higher than ours and rising quickly. That’s nothing to do with thinking we’re ‘better’ than Spain. France and Norway have also reimposed some travel restrictions.

SheepandCow · 27/07/2020 08:29

When I heard Spain's cases were increasing I assumed it was because of us. Brits taking it with them on holiday. I'm surprised it's not the other way round with quarantine, with them requiring us to quarantine on arrival there.

SheepandCow · 27/07/2020 08:33

@MarcelineMissouri regardless of how deaths have been recorded we have more excess deaths than any other European country.

Jrobhatch29 · 27/07/2020 08:40

@Oaktree55

Can I just clear two things up. Firstly it’s proven children do catch and spread it. Look at data from States, they are fastest growing age groups.

Secondly re “T Cell magic” there was a paper out last week showing only 5% of adults have cross reactive T Cells (it is yet unknown what if any protection this infers). Children show 60% cross reactivity which MAY explain part of the reason why they often get mild symptoms but they aren’t sure yet but it doesn’t mean they don’t spread it.

Hard hit areas in South America are showing 70% seroprevalence. The U.K. was showing sub 10% back in May. To think that we’re all magically immune when close to 90% here unexposed is wishful thinking as it would not be possible to record 70% seroprevalence if infected people were recovering and not, initially at least, producing detectable antibodies.

Yes they are hopeful that immunity might be considerably longer lasting than the 3 months reported in press but as yet we don’t know how long immunity lasts.

We also as yet don’t know what long term effects are. There are many with symptoms months after contracting.

There is a great virologist Florian Krammer on Twitter if anyone is interested. He provides good updates on immunity/vaccine hopes etc.

I also think the main issues we are facing which could easily kick off exponential growth are airborne spread indoors and a track and trace which is currently poorly performing and may well collapse as numbers grow.

I am sure I will be called a doom mongerer again but I’m afraid this is what the majority of experts are shouting about.

The paper you are talking about was 5% cross reactive antobodies in adults. Not t cells. T cell studies show far higher % in adults but nobody knows what that means in terms of protection
Quartz2208 · 27/07/2020 08:45

@Sheepandcow no I dont think it is us taking it - the area of Barcelona opened up nightclubs/casinos which we havent done.

Spain locked down hard. It also opened up quicker than us - its 4 phase plan starting in May and ending in June

Apart from schools as they would have ended on 18th June so they were not included in the above