Schools reopening 2

[oldbagface]

Old thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/3971862-Schools-Reopening?pg=1

@CoffeeAndCakeAndCroissant

Up to year 9 was still in school. Above year 9 were remote learning or mixed.

My friends in Sweden who has children in schools up to year 9 had pretty standard school days, but play dates were discouraged. All football for juniors were going ahead as well.

They did have a different approach to illness in that it was not only cough and fever, but any illness at all and you were asked to stay at home.

This sounds great, no ill children in school at all, so no bugs going round. Blended learning for the oldest kids so they can socially distance properly. I'd be happy with this.

They had extra precautions, such as at football matches, parents were not allowed to watch. The have no crowds at school gates as most children walk to school from the age of 7/8. I am not sure how this was managed at nurseries - my friends’ children are older.

The fact that above year 9 was distance learning did show up in the table (0.7 RR compared to other professions, “gymnasielärare”), but also for the teachers in the ages where they were at school, it was around 1 and less risky than many service professions.

Lots of ill staff, though. I have read reports of staff being bullied to work through illness in Sweden.

There is also a big difference in class size, average UK primary class has 27.1 students, average Swedish primary class has 19 students.

I haven’t heard that. The teachers at my friends children’s schools were home if they were ill. I think the general guidelines were to stay home at any sign of illness (so the also caught less common symptoms of the coronavirus). I believe Sweden was relying on lack of evidence for high transmission from children to adults (but I may be mistaken).

There are so many factors. Sweden did many things wrong as well, they failed to protect the elderly in homes. There was a lack of safety information in foreign languages, which may have impacted, guidelines were based on the typical Swede (lives alone or core family, extremely compliant with regulations etc) and migrant areas where families lived together in generations were disproportionately hit.

I think holding the schools open up to year 9 was a decision they were very happy with. I even believe the wishes they have extended it up in age groups a bit, but I may be wrong.

I think people traditionally try to work through illness in Sweden as the first day you are ill you get zero pay (it is a complicated calculation, but works out approximately like that).

During the coronavirus, the government paid this (decision on March 11 I think) to encourage people to really comply and not stay home for financial reasons.

Also toilets. The virus has been detected in feaces. When the toilet lid is not closed during flushing the particles become aerosolised.

One poster on another thread said a while back that there were no lids on toilets at her school. I'm not sure if this is usually the case in schools but even so, are kids going to put the lid down?

@oldbagface There aren’t toilet lids on the toilets at my school. Think it’s the fact they can be easily broken so just have the seat.

No toilet lids in schools normally but my kids avoid using them because they are grim

Partner had an email from NASUWT today - saying much the same thing as other unions I think - they will be monitoring / talking to ministers etc.

They say how late the guidance is in having been released so many schools may not contact staff until well into the holidays with plans for a 'safe return'. If staff have questions over safety once their individual school has been in touch re returning, to get in touch with them!

That'll be the entire membership then!

Realistically we can’t compare to nations with better funded public services and more socially responsible or compliant populations.

Or to countries with smaller class sizes ... which is the majority....

I completely agree that it is an uncertain comparison. The only reason I put it there is that it is some data from a country where the school were kept open through the pandemic (year 1-9), I think no protective gear was used and the risk for teachers of getting Covid was still not higher than other professions (and lower than taxi drivers, buss/train drivers, restaurant workers etc).

It is the only comparison we have for schools in particular and it made me more comfortable with schools opening. I hoped others would take some comfort as well.

I am native Swedish speaker, so happy to translate any extract or Swedish language if anyone has any questions.

Were Swedish teachers and children wearing masks?

The class sizes are probably higher than 19 (I think that data is from 2014 and class sizes are growing), but I do think they are lower than the UK.

I got a bit lost trying to find the data from the statistics byrå though. Some schools state as a policy no higher than 25 pupils per class, but this is obviously anecdotal evidence. I think there is a big difference between the cities and the country side as well.

I have texted my friends to ask if any teachers wore masks. I doubt it as they (My friends) have been quite against a general face mask introduction. Apparently they fear that overall compliance (distancing, no socialising for adults except outside, etc) will go down if you add extra requirements. They also have concerns about proper utilisation of face masks...

I will let you know. As I mentioned before, I think Sweden relied on data stating that transmission from children to adults and between children was not proved in studies and they focused on preventing adult to adult transmission.

I would think the very significantly smaller class sizes in Sweden would mean that social distancing would happen more naturally anyway. For that reason, I don't think you can compare. UK state schools are very crowded, in general.

As I said, definitely not direct comparison, just a data point. I haven’t seen any other data analysing transmission in schools and impact on teachers, only this one.

As far as I've been made aware Sweden relied heavily upon the fact they have a largely compliant and socially conscientious population. It hasn't turned out so well in any areas with large proportions of people not of Swedish heritage.

We don't have a compliant or socially responsible population (just read the posters here doing covid denial and insistenting everything go back to normal right now and everybody stops being paranoid).

It really is a bit chalk and cheese. I often joke with a Swedish friend that they have far too much of a sense of humour and dare to criticise government policies - she'll laugh along and point out she was born Polish so she can get away with it.

It's not just economics and taxation and levels of public sector funding that separate us but massive differences in culture.

In fact I'd presume that it is the massive difference in culture that allows for higher taxation and investment in public services. If you introduced nordic levels of income tax here people would be wailing and screaming from the roof tops. People theoretically want well funded schools and hospitals but not if it will actually cost them something. They theoretically believe care workers and doctors are similarly valuable but if you suggested narrowing the pay gap they'd be horrified.

People want schools to be the answer to everything and never close but the idea of a penny more on the pound in income tax to fund it would not go down well to say the least.

@CoffeeAndCakeAndCroissant

I have texted my friends to ask if any teachers wore masks. I doubt it as they (My friends) have been quite against a general face mask introduction. Apparently they fear that overall compliance (distancing, no socialising for adults except outside, etc) will go down if you add extra requirements. They also have concerns about proper utilisation of face masks...

I will let you know. As I mentioned before, I think Sweden relied on data stating that transmission from children to adults and between children was not proved in studies and they focused on preventing adult to adult transmission.

Wow, only outside socialisation for adults. That’s amazing. That would keep R down, think horse already bolted on that one over here though?

When it comes to the risk of transmission of infection from or within the community,
we also need to consider

Population density

# People / km2 :

280 UK
23 Sweden
17 Norway
34 USA
135 Denmark

I agree with most of those points. However, the NHS equivalent works differently. It is not free at the point of use.

There is a high cost ceiling on health care, prescriptions and dental care, but you pay a subsidised rate until you reach that. I believe children have free care. If you have below a certain income, it is also free.

However, it does reduce some of the pressure on the A&E (much more expensive than a GP appointment I think) and people do tend to show up at appointments. I guess that saves some money for other public services.

My best friend and her husband have not seen friends except for outside since the pandemic started. They keep play dates for the children restricted to only those who are close friends and in the same class.

She now works from home, he is an ICU nurse (not with Covid, but was standby to work with Covid if needed). Their children’s have been to school and football training throughout.

So those teachers thinking of resigning. How does your pay rise (which is greater than all healthcare staff!) affect your decision?