Schools Reopening?

[ClimbDad]

A major, peer reviewed study into transmission in South Korea has established that tweens and teenagers spread the SARSCOV2 virus more than any other age group.

The study involved more than 65,000 people and used South Korea’s exceptionally effective contact tracing system to look at who brought the virus into households. Tweens and teenagers were the highest index case age group. Younger children transmitted at the same rate as 20-somethings.

This is a large scale, rigorous piece of research that proves children are effective at transmitting the virus. It was conducted in a country that implements strict social distancing and mask wearing among children. The authors say the rate of transmission would have been higher if children weren’t subjected to those measures.

Plans to reopen schools more or less as normal in September will place many lives at risk, and increase the likelihood schools will have to close again. The government needs to acknowledge schools will be highly efficient vectors of viral transmission and change its reopening plans.

Published Paper:
wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/10/20-1315_article

Article on the paper:

www.bloombergquint.com/business/covid-19-spread-fastest-by-teens-and-tweens-korea-study-finds

Very few people seem to find any grey areas in this debate - and there are many.

It is not black and white - school vs no school. There are things we can do to ensure children are back in school and educated, but it needs planning and investment.

If these things were put in place, chances are schools would see far less disruption than if we just go back as before with no thought put into the consequences. There will be far more schools locking down if we don't try and mitigate things.

Bigger picture - long term etc...

Kids need to be in school and they need to be educated properly. It’s not an optional extra. It must happen. I am bemused at how little importance some people seem to attach to the importance of schooling and education. This nonsense has gone on long enough. Back to school. We can’t stop every single person getting it or passing it on but if we keep following the rules I don’t see why it can’t stay manageable

This rhetoric is unhelpful and wearing. If you read my first post on this thread you’ll see why.

Those of us actually working in schools under the ever more complex guidance from the incompetent bunch of charlatans at the helm can see that it’s somewhat more complex than yelling “bring back schools”.

What are your thoughts about my post?

Kids need to be in school and they need to be educated properly. It’s not an optional extra. It must happen. I am bemused at how little importance some people seem to attach to the importance of schooling and education. This nonsense has gone on long enough. Back to school. We can’t stop every single person getting it or passing it on but if we keep following the rules I don’t see why it can’t stay manageable.

Adults working with them need to be as safe as possible. So masks should be worn. I don't understand how anyone would think otherwise, given this research.

Children's education matters but the lives of those working with them matters more.

but the virus is in decline now with the R number well below 1 and has been for weeks.

Because schools have been partially closed and operating with safety measures that are impossible in full capacity. Because the warm weather means people are outside a lot more than they will be on the winter.

This nonsense has gone on long enough.

I keep seeing this posted. What nonsense? Global pandemic?

I don’t think you can deal effectively with a global pandemic by ignoring it. That seems to be stupidity of the highest kind.

It certainly confirms that teachers and TAs are at great risk. In an enclosed, poorly ventilated space, in close physical contact, no social distancing and no masks allowed.

I really don't understand why the public have not been celebrating teachers in the same way as other key workers have been. Teachers have been working throughout, schools have never closed.

It's as if people have forgotten it is the GOVERNMENT who sent kids home and they feel somehow teachers were responsible for children not being at school.

Teachers have done everything the government have asked, plus a whole lot more besides, going above and beyond, delivering meals to vulnerable children etc

The fact that only Yr R, 1 and 6 (plus vulnerable and key worker children) are back full time is because that's all the GOVERNMENT allowed back.

Shop workers, care workers, delivery drivers etc who have also worked throughout have all been allowed to wear masks, have Perspex screens if needed etc but teachers who have had no protection have been vilified by the public for the fact that children are at home, yet this is because that's what the GOVERNMENT dictated.

Cases were low but were rising then. We now know the virus was brought into the country separately many times which is why it was so difficult to keep tabs on the spread. Case are low and falling now. It’s not the same as it was in Feb/March.

No we can’t go back to normal at least not right away but we can do more than just wring our hands and keep children out of education for half a year or more.

Every week, Public Health England publishes a surveillance report showing the source of outbreaks. For the past five weeks, an average of ten schools PER DAY have been at the heart of COVID-19 outbreaks. This has been at a time when attendance is low and schools have been implementing social distancing

Given the debacle and controversy over the way PHE has been recording the covid death rates then I really would take anything statistical with a pinch of salt. There is no uniformed approach to recording data so you can't draw accurate comparisons and it is well known that stats can be interpretted to represent whatever narative you are trying to push.

I really don't understand why the public have not been celebrating teachers in the same way as other key workers have been. Teachers have been working throughout, schools have never closed

It’s because we’re all lazy, cowardly bastards who have spent the pandemic drinking gin in our ever sunny and perfectly coiffed gardens.

I don’t think we should ignore it. But too many people are viewing schools and education as an optional extra. It’s not good enough. And it’s clear I’m talking about the schools issue, not the pandemic itself. Don’t be so obtuse.

But too many people are viewing schools and education as an optional extra

Who?

@YewHedge

It certainly confirms that teachers and TAs are at great risk. In an enclosed, poorly ventilated space, in close physical contact, no social distancing and no masks allowed.

I really don't understand why the public have not been celebrating teachers in the same way as other key workers have been. Teachers have been working throughout, schools have never closed.

It's as if people have forgotten it is the GOVERNMENT who sent kids home and they feel somehow teachers were responsible for children not being at school.

Teachers have done everything the government have asked, plus a whole lot more besides, going above and beyond, delivering meals to vulnerable children etc

The fact that only Yr R, 1 and 6 (plus vulnerable and key worker children) are back full time is because that's all the GOVERNMENT allowed back.

Shop workers, care workers, delivery drivers etc who have also worked throughout have all been allowed to wear masks, have Perspex screens if needed etc but teachers who have had no protection have been vilified by the public for the fact that children are at home, yet this is because that's what the GOVERNMENT dictated.

Because in every narrative where there are ‘heroes‘, you must have ‘villains’.

It's because some nurses and doctors died. There needs to be a few dozen teacher deaths before they start getting clapped? Maybe we can pencil in Fridays?

Case are low and falling now. It’s not the same as it was in Feb/March.

Why do you think that is? And what do you think will happen to the falling cases if schools reopen as normal in September?

Here’s the swine flu graph from 2009. What happened at the end of July to make it drop so suddenly, and what happened in September that caused it to rise again. Given that the rest of the country continued as normal?

NO ONE is arguing that schools should remain closed indefinitely. That is a straw man. What people are arguing is that the government’s current plans for re-opening with very little in place to stop the spread, particularly in secondary are irresponsible and should be revisited and amended.

Btw on the swine flu graph, what happened in November was a vaccine.

noble I was an NQT teaching in inner London in 2009 and caught swine flu from school. Very unpleasant.

Why do you think that is? And what do you think will happen to the falling cases if schools reopen as normal in September?

But we don’t know that. 1 in over 7000 people have the virus now and falling. Sure it’s going to take vigilance, compliance with public health measures, and comprehensive testing and contact tracing, but the virus doesn’t just increase and spread from nowhere if no-one in a school or wherever has it .

No responsible country that has measurable infections is even considering opening schools as normal

A common theme seems to be a significant reduction in class sizes and teaching groups, plus masks and social distancing - none of which is being proposed by the UK government

You only have to look at the difference in school building size and overall site space to know that we would never have been able to implement the drastically reduced class sizes, social distancing etc without having 3/4s of pupils from the majority of schools never being able to set foot back in the setting.

It is a case of each country working within their own parameters so it is unfair to draw comparisons and criticise the different approaches.

It isn't just one thing...

We should have started lockdown earlier
We should have followed the lead of countries who made masks mandatory and established a working track and trace system before starting a more gradual opening up when numbers were lower.
If we had reduced the virus to a lower level, we could think about getting people back to work, measures to reopen schools safely (with options where possible or necessary, for remote learning, outdoor learning etc to ease numbers on the schools).

...and this isn't just a case of, 'oh but hindsight is a wonderful thing'...experts have advised all of these things along the way, other countries (with lower death rates) have implemented them.

Instead we've gone for the options of...

Lockdown too late
Destroy public trust
Put protective measures in place too late
Create a shocking track and trace system giving false sense of security
Open shops and bars, without the protective measures in place whilst numbers not reduced to very low level.
Pause shielding putting vulnerable at risk...just before opening schools, with few protective measures in place (and threaten fines for patents deciding to stay home)...as we are about to enter winter flu season.
Fucking Yay for us.

Vulnerable and shielding need to take precautions I'd very much like to take precautions, we have been in lockdown as a family since the 2nd week of March, to protect ds, however if we 'take precautions' in September we will be fined.

What people are arguing is that the government’s current plans for re-opening with very little in place to stop the spread, particularly in secondary are irresponsible and should be revisited and amended.
Yes
I think it's shocking that the government isn't even giving schools extra money for cleaning. What educational resources will be cut to facilitate all the extra cleaning needed?

but the virus doesn’t just increase and spread from nowhere

Senga, that’s exactly what this virus has done. Literally from nowhere. It didn’t even exist last year. 0 cases. Do you not understand that?

Sure it’s going to take vigilance, compliance with public health measures, and comprehensive testing and contact tracing,

Do you think we have comprehensive testing and contact tracing

Their needs have been put last throughout this.

What needs do you mean? Because my child has received an education - her school were fantastic throughout apart from a few initial teething problems - within two days she was getting daily phone calls, which were reduced to weekly as things became clearer, she was offered a place, we declined, as she has an EHCP, within one week I was being sent vouchers for her FSM, a few weeks after that school sent out surveys as to who needed lap tops etc, as soon as they possibly could, school had the year 10s in. I agree that it varied by school how well it was handled but there was a framework and that was implemented with amazing speed imo.

So in conclusion I think there were huge amounts of detail to attend and new infrastructure required and it was in place within weeks for thousands. Nothing is perfect because this is an unprecedented - in our life time - social emergency. But i certainly don't think their needs were put last throughout. I think that was probably the elderly in care homes tbh.

penny However I do think there is more the government could do within the education system we have, that would still mean all children back full time.

Most importantly, they could fund a proper cleaning budget for schools. Our budget is being eaten alive by cleaning costs. We would like to be able to provide extra toilets and hand washing facilities but can’t afford it.

They could require children with symptoms to get tested or at least allow schools to ask for proof of a negative test.

They could protect the income of workers who need to isolate so they do not feel pressure to send their child in when someone in their household has symptoms.

For secondaries, there should be a discussion about mask wearing, especially when moving around the school. The studies showing low transmission from children are usually referring to under 10s.

I hope we will see the flu vaccination programme come to schools earlier this year. Ours is normally November, which feels too late.

Just to clarify my last post, I don’t think the virus is going to be materialising out of thin air. But that it took 1 case to shut down the world.

‘Cases are low’ is no reason to be complacent.

My DH and I are secondary school teachers.. we don't want to be the 'balance of risk' thank you very much. My job is a job, I'm not giving my life up for it. I have my own children who need their mum and dad.