To think people need to be released from the idea that they must 'stay safe'?

[TheDailyCarbuncle]

IMO people's heads have been messed with on an absolutely massive scale during this pandemic. So many people seem to be locked into the idea that they absolutely must avoid getting covid at all costs, no matter what, to the extent that they're convinced that if they don't do everything possible to 'stay safe' then they're definitely going to die.

I genuinely think that the extent to which governments around the world have convinced people that the only thing that matters is this virus is a far far far bigger problem than the virus itself. I think governments are too cowardly to say what needs to be said, which is that there is no way to prevent everyone from getting it, and that attempting to prevent it is causing so many other problems that it just can't be done any more.

I think people are being driven around the twist with the idea that this threat is out there, lurking at all times, waiting to get them. It's like a form of mental torture, with people questioning everything and worrying about everything, while the economy crumbles around them.

There is no guarantee of a vaccine or of more effective treatments. There is every chance that covid will still be circulating, along with every other virus, in 2030. You could do everything absolutely 'right' now and still get it next year or in five years.

I get the fact that it was new, unprecedented, etc. But where do we draw the line? When will the acceptance come? When it's too late and there's no way to restore the millions of jobs lost? When economies have collapsed so much that poverty, violence and starvation make covid look like a walk in the park?

Oh, yeah, malaria, everyone's magically treated and cured. That's why millions of people die from it every year .

Hope you don't drive a car and live in a car free area. Those kills hundreds of thousands of people every year. Should be avoided. Not safe.

Some of the language used, even by e.g. the BBC (who used to be calm and factual at one time) is ridiculous. Only yesterday Boris was going on about it 'circling like a shark'

Yes, Boris who could have died from it.
The fear is the problem.

Thinking about it the fear isn’t necessarily catching it and dying. We know the % is small. I don’t want to catch as the long term health implications are awful. Who knows who will be affected by wrecked lungs or other organs that will hinder or shorten lives. I’d like to know the % of people affected that way. There will be a lot of studies done on the health implications after ‘recovery’ I’m sure

Apparently we are more fearful in this country than others, too.

Possibly to due to with how things have been reported and the government adverts and approach in this country.

As Worldgonecrazy mentions

"The Governments own documents tell us that the population were deliberately manipulated to feel personally threatened in order to ensure compliance with lockdown"

Also, the Scottish approach isn't reassuring either the thought that we are only safe when it has gone away completely. (which may work, for a time, in places like Iceland or New Zealand, but not Scotland)

@chocolate08

Well, if you're fortunate enough to live in Scotland where Sturgeon has the policy to eradicate the virus there, you would feel generally more comfortable. It's political choice that we're in an environment where it still ticks along at a supposed acceptable rate. I'd say the answer is to pressurise the England govt to eradicate the virus and have more of a long term strategy.

You can't possibly eradicate the virus in Scotland, is that the aim of the Scottish government?

Is every resident being tested and all borders closed?

Do the Scots think they can do what no one else in the world can?

At what point do we say 'ok it's out there, let's get on with it' and accept that perpetually trying to fight it is a losing battle?

That is the million dollar question.
We don't know.
But I'm going out on a limb and say that it's at the time when not fighting it doesn't lead to people dying at home because there weren't enough ICU beds to save them.

Boris who could have died from it

Yes, in a risk group due to age, being male, and obesity, perhaps his own experience has impacted on people's fear. Seeing him in the TV, being in hospital etc. In fact that was mentioned as part of the reason for our higher fear in the UK, I remember.

New Zealand 'eliminated' covid for only a few weeks. They now have new cases. Which begs the question as to how long they'll continue to insist that everyone who comes into the country goes into quarantine. At some point it'll have to stop, they simply won't be able to afford it. What happens then?

I don’t mind people wfh if they can it makes sense for public transport. I don’t mind SD and screens in place on supermarkets

I’d like a solution to schools ASAP and I want to move on from financial packages / furlough and grants as the burden is too great.

Leicester is an outlier so I do understand that but the thought of local lockdowns decimating the economy and businesses further is unsustainable

When redundancies start to roll in more we have to find a way forward

NZ have down well to teach their goal but if there’s no vaccine it will become difficult

Victoria in Aus is a case worth looking at, staff in quarantine hotel gave re-spread it. You can be very careful and yet it’s spread again causing restrictions.

Keeping the virus from being in circulation is a mirage.

Most countries are reopening with lowish transmission rates that mean the virus won't go to exponencial phase again. Keeping an eye on outbreaks, testing contacts, etc
That will be the next couple of years.
Meanwhile, we'll have to get on with our lives, carefully, but not frozen.

name one

Heart disease. Stroke. Sepsis. Diabetes. Alcohol related illnesses and deaths.

All illnesses that can be risk reduced.

I don’t see people desperately terrified of these things in the way they are of Covid, yet any of these is much more likely to be a personal threat and real risk of death for many people.

We don’t have a weekly doorstep fitness session to support the NHS by reducing stroke and obesity risk. We don’t see signs in supermarkets reminding people to stay sober to avoid alcoholic injuries and deaths.

Some progress was being made with sepsis awareness but I haven’t seen anything about it for a few months as one virus has taken up the headlines. Unfortunately it hasn’t stopped people dying of sepsis..

But Covid 19 has made many otherwise sensible people become risk averse to this one illness.

There are ways of living and reducing risks. So why have we ended in a situation where many people are too scared to leave their homes and have contact with other humans? Why are people willing to increase their risk of dying from everything else to avoid this one disease?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52758024

This is actually quite useful on this topic

@Worldgonecrazy

name one

Heart disease. Stroke. Sepsis. Diabetes. Alcohol related illnesses and deaths.

Those diseases don't spread.
And don't flood ICU beds in weeks.

@GalesThisMorning

I'm trying pretty hard not to catch it! I am going out, seeing one other household outdoors (Welsh rules) limiting shopping, wearing a mask if I need to go indoors somewhere and washing hands frequently. I'm not terrified. This virus is highly unlikely to kill me, but I dont want to catch it and I really don't to spread it.

No government could have countenanced doing nothing and letting it rip through society, although I'm not sure how close Brazil's policy was to that.

Out of interest op what would you want to world's governments to have done?

I would like them first and foremost to have questioned the Imperial model more closely or at least re-examined it when it became clear that it was inaccurate. Instead they seem to have doubled down on it, insisting that it was right and that thousands of lives have been saved by lockdown, despite the fact that there isn't one shred of evidence for that and that the evidence that is available actually suggests that the model is utter horseshit.

In fact, that relates to the wider thing I'd have liked, which was honesty. Honesty about how 'deadly' the virus actually is rather than peddling tragic stories through the BBC. Honesty about the fact that when it comes to viruses we are unfortunately very limited about what we can do. Greater testing from the off, to actually show who was really infected, rather than treating the whole world as if it was infected and forcing healthy people to stay at home, better protection and care for older people - while healthy young people were locked down, missing out on education and work, vulnerable people were being exposed to the virus in care homes and hospitals and that's where the greatest number of deaths happened, which is an absolute scandal. Why lock everyone down then just fail to protect the people who need protection??

That's just for a start!

Why lock everyone down then just fail to protect the people who need protection??

Those are very good questions for some governments.
Not all.

Op if the infection rate is around 10% (scientists say 8) then isn’t the IC model close?

Can you say why you think it’s wrong

People are dying at home whilst ICU beds are empty because of the fear.

ICU beds which are usually full (flooded if you want to use hyperbolic language) due to the illnesses I mentioned.

I am so worried about some people’s MH with relation to this. The sage committee advising the government has very openly had behavioural experts sitting on it and they’ve definitely indicated that there has had to be some clever manipulation to get people scared enough to comply with a lockdown. And then they come out with a catchy slogan that says “stay home, save lives”. They didn’t even say anything about protecting yourself... literally that if you left your house you’d be murdering other people.

The lockdown was only ever about stopping the NHS being overwhelmed so that if you did get it, there would be medical support available to you. And yet the idea of hiding away inside until there is a vaccine or zero cases in the entire world doesn’t appear to be an uncommon plan. I’m curious how these folk think there will still be any form of society left if we all did that?!

I agree with you OP. The fear you see on here, and repeated on Facebook. Twitter etc is unbelievable. There’s a huge split between those who’ve been at home throughout and those who’ve had to go out to work. The number of people who are refusing to get medical help for other conditions due to fear is ridiculous The media have blood on their hands for whipping the phobia levels up IMHO.

Circle back round to this thread in 6 months time.

@LaurieFairyCake
Did you ever get the results of that £250 anti-body test by London Medical Laboratory?

OP, reading your posts it seems that you think the whole world has behaved like the UK.

Response to COVID has varied with diverse outcomes.
The countries that have ignored it initially ended up largely in lockdowns or huge death tolls.
Others have invested in testing and tracking or implementing early personal protection measures and have sort of sailed through without significant lockdown.

For those that ended up in lockdown, the more they waited, the longer and stricter the necessary lockdown. Like the UK with their half arsed and late measures.

Take a look at Worldometer and see what happened in different countries.

I can see it leading to an OCD type fear - this compulsion to stay safe, combined with the thoughts (from the government and news) such as if I go out people will die.

Because that is how OCD works, behaviours to reduce those extreme anxious thoughts. It can become overwhelming, where do you draw the line, in the effort to 'stay safe' and 'keep others safe'.

It makes me angry that these thoughts were introduced by eh governments psychologists and behaviourists, who must be aware of the impact in doing so on mental health. Being specialists in that area.

It didn't have to be that way either. In Holland, people were encouraged to be sensible, to think of others, but given a more positive 'we'll get through this' message. They are quite a densely populated country, as well, but have managed OK. They have quite a robust attitude to health.

I agree that the "stay safe" message is unhelpful but not quite for the reasons you suggest.

I think its unhelpful because it pushes the onus onto the individual when in fact a large amount of responsibility should have been in the hands of governments and local authorities. Had they listen to advice and locked down earlier we would hopefully have been able to minimise deaths and come out of lockdown earlier.