When kids go back in September, should schools stay open till 4pm

[Lardlizard]

To allow kids to catch up and allow workers to catch up on work

You really believe that secondaries won't be open longer? they already do with after school classes and I imagine they'll be trying to keep behind the most needy rather than everyone

No as would have an impact on the activities run outside of school. My ds doesn't do any actives anymore however I don't fancy doing at 4pm school run and then getting home , sorting tea, Toddler and baby bath etc. We already don't sit down before 10pm and are non stop.

My daily rate for 195 days as an nqt is £120 before tax

Wtf is excessive about that!?

If children haven't been engaging during lockdown, do you think they will engage with extra hours in school?

It would be at a big cost to teachers with not much return, if any, to students in increased learning.

If they are too tired at the end of the day there’s no point. Better to send Then home normal time home and start refreshed.

That last sentence.. send them home etc

If children haven't been engaging during lockdown, do you think they will engage with extra hours in school?

Plenty of examples of children who would normally engage in school, simply not engaging at home.

Anyone who thinks that home learning is like school, needs to engage brain power.

Who is going to fund this ? Or are tiu expecting teachers to stay on ( many sports ones already do)
Private schools have longer days bit a lot longer holidays and usually more sport
If just for catch up ny ds secondary run a lot of revision sessions etc after school for year 11's and also school holiday ones and i am sure they are not alone
Younger kids should be able to catch up , exam years need the extra which a lot of schools provide
Next years year 6 scrap sats and help kids catch up as so much if year 6 is about sats which arent really needed
Schools can be open from 8-3 or 8-4 in state but will be doing same sort of hours of teaching just have different length lunch breaks etc

@SmileEachDay I hear you. But clearly we need to “work harder” according to a lot of these people

@umbrellahat I an not a teacher but you would have half of them resign with your proposal
Teachers are paid reasonably well because they have to go through years of training , many will have student loans to pay back as well and they dont work 9-3 bit there daily rate for what they do is certainly not extravagent , i dont think its a profession you go into purely for the money

No my kids have clubs to get to, they have a life outside school. They don't finish til 3.30 anyway so it would be an extra 30 mins a day. My son was doing a free after school til 4 one day which was run by a teacher's good will. That will all dry up if they are forced to work more hours

And - I have preschool meetings x 4 per week and a tutor group.

If teaching is so fucking easy why do a third of teachers quit within the first 5 years. Now people want to make the situation worse by giving them even more hours work. Somethings got to give and it will be having teachers in classes. Some schools already can't recruit staff

@umbrellahat
I used to work year round in school (summer school /intervention/study sessions etc) and had an annual leave system where I could book my 6 weeks annual leave off (but only during times of holiday)
I got paid for 52 weeks.

Due to budget cuts, they re-contracted me to work term time only. I lost £4.000 of my salary.

So... Yes... We are only paid for term time working plus a pro - rata version of annual leave.

I get 39 weeks pay plus 5 weeks annual leave at my full rate (£125 a day)
Then I get 8 weeks where I am not paid.

As a graduate with 2 post grad degrees, and 14 years school experience, I really don't consider that to be an excessive salary.

I know for sure, I don't get paid for 52 weeks a year and I know my daily salary hasn't been readjusted to compensate for that.
Why do you think that you know?

And as for teachers 'not being paid for them' of course they are! Do you seriously think you are worth the daily rate that discounting the holidays would add up to? Seriously deluded

Erm....no, we're not paid for holidays beyond the statutory minimum. But of course, you know better than those of us actually doing the job . As for 'worth the daily rate' of £120 as an NQT well, yes, an NQT has a minimum of 3 years higher education, many have 4 and some have more than that. I work with several colleagues with Phd's in their subjects (all teaching colleagues, none of them with any interest in management) and most of us now have an Masters in Education. Many more these days have spent some time working in related industry and are able to bring some 'real life' application of the learning to the table as well. Paying a £22k starting salary is frankly an insult when in industry, some of us could be looking at double or treble that just to get out of bed at the age of 25. And thanks to Gove and 10 years of austerity, many, many colleagues who have trained in recent years will struggle to ever get beyond M6 on the salary scale. Those who are above that are in serious risk of losing their jobs because they are too expensive for schools on ever-reducing budgets.

And those teachers who say they would resign - well good ! Better to cut out dead wood anyway

It is unfortunate that people really do not understand the state of the sector. Resignations are happening more and more. Many excellent, experienced teachers gone 'fuck it' and now working on supply or left the profession all together. It is seriously not worth it. In my experience, the dead wood ends up promoted and dead wood with power equals resignations. You think you're being clever but there are many of us on the edge who are financially stable enough to walk tomorrow. My department - a shortage subject - is losing 2 older staff because of the uncertainty over coronavirus. I too will go with half a term's notice if September brings what I suspect it is going to bring. That will leave an NQT in charge of our department and 3 supply staff (assuming long term supply can be found). If you think that is good for your child's education you are sadly mistaken. And it's not the only department in my school in this much trouble and we are not the only school.

Teachers are not paid for the holidays! Christ if they were they would have extended terms and working hours at least a decade ago! Instead they invented 'Academies' to rewrite terms and conditions.

@UmbrellaHat

Most of that is unpaid, so it's like you having 6 weeks paid holiday and then taking 7 weeks unpaid leave. Why don't you do that if you want the same as teachers get? That old chestnut. Most jobs can't be done with the employee absent for 13 weeks /if a facility worked term time only would be out of business pronto. And as for teachers 'not being paid for them' of course they are! Do you seriously think you are worth the daily rate that discounting the holidays would add up to? Seriously deluded. No-one would design an education like this if they were starting from a modern standpoint. Antiquated system. Shakespeare's time when the schools followed the legal terms and summer was for harvesting children were in school from 6am in the summer to5pm (an hour later start in winter. So now we have the same hols but massively shorter days. We should have the days length we have now but reconfigure the holidays and definitely cut down from 13 weeks. And those teachers who say they would resign - well good ! Better to cut out dead wood anyway.

Well, clearly you think that teaching is an easy, cushy number, with 13 week's paid holiday a year so why aren't you a teacher?

I mean, it's a no brainer surely?

Hearhoovesthinkzebras, All teachers who are training nowadays have to pass a literacy skills test.

And as I said add in the 13 weeks annual leave where you could work elsewhere if so poorly paid.

Ah yes those magical jobs where you just turn up for a few weeks a year 😂

I think all those who think teachers need to work more should give up their current jobs and take up the profession for a while . After all you all seem to know how to do it better than those currently doing it !

I am not a teacher and have never wished to be. I have several teacher friends and IF a handful have had a slightly easier time of it over the last three months then I am pleased. It may of actually given them enough breathing space to not throw in the towel. !

50 % of maths and physics teachers leave the profession within 5 years.
There is an acute shortage of primary school teachers.

If the job is so bloody cushy, well paid and with long holidays. Why is there such a huge shortage. ?

The simple answer is this. Until you have actually been a teacher (especially in an underfunded deprived area ) then you have absolutely no bloody idea what it entails ! I have NEVER met a teacher or been friends with one that pitches up at 8:30 , takes an hour for lunch and pushes off at 15:30. Most teachers I have met are in at 8am still working at 5, get home, eat and start marking work /preparing classes at 8 until gone 11pm .

The holidays are there for them to stop burning out.

No kids don't have to 'catch up' . The line that parents are concerned about is a construct of the education system. It simply needs moving to allow those who haven't had the ability to learn without being in school time to learn what needs to be learned and parents need to stop being obsessed with some idiotic idea that academia is the be all end all of life.

@SoloMummy I think that you need to reread the post from @acsec that you have quoted. She lives 15 minutes from school. It's hardly 'such a distance' that she has chosen.
What time would you like us to get to school? Considering that most directed time doesn't start until 8:30 at the earliest.

To the poster who questioned 60 hours per week. Yes, easily.
I get to work at 8, eat my lunch while marking most days and leave at 5:15.
I then put ds to bed at 7 and work until at least 10. When I go to bed because I am knackered. I also get a good few hours in on my days off and during holidays.

I easily do my directed time and then a lot more.

What will half an hour achieve?

The budget to pay all teachers for an additional 5 hours work a week plus the additional cover for PPA time as their contact time has increased will come from...…….?

The prep school argument - look at how they structure their days. Most prep schools have an online breakdown of their routine. Long afternoon play, snack time, it's stretched out, not 8.30-4.30-5pm non stop academic time. You also have to accept that the average prep school class is not the same as the average 30 kid primary class.

They're knackered by 2.30, their attention is going, and at primary age they need to go home and play and chill out. I'm not even that sure about the many after school clubs and homework for young kids.

Secondary - yes, you could make them do it. They'll hate it though. Even adults in training sessions are normally knackered by 2.30-3pm and getting restless, attention slipping, tired of sitting still and concentrating, and too full to take in a lot more, and are usually desperate to escape asap.

Teaching is a full time job already.

You can't just add hours to the working day and just expect teachers to cover them.

Even if you gave them more money, where would the teachers working full time (many of whom are in school until 4 or before school or at lunchtime doing extra curriculars) find the additional time?

And extra hour in class is at least 2 additional hours of work.

Also, pupils need time for socialising, extra-curriculars, and homework.

"Catching up" is not achieved by making up the hours.

It will happen (where it happens, and it won't happen everywhere) by teachers and pupils working harder, not working longer.

I teach KS1. The levels of concentration in the afternoon are already far lower than in the morning. Staying until 4pm would be counterproductive. They would just be more tired the following morning when concentration levels are usually higher.

Also agree that children shouldn't have to give up extra-curricular activities that are also important.