people, please, stay home if you can

[Lua]

Most places that have eased lockdown measures, are seeing an increase in the number of cases. So there is no way around it (at least in the short-term), live a "normal life" and increase the risk for everyone (there are no "personal risk" in a pandemic).

I see a lot of people in mumsnet saying that we suffer too much to save the lives of 80 year olds. While I find this cold assessment horrible on its own, there are so many case of under 60s suffering badly. This is a harrowing picture of 63 year old woman:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/25/from-cold-to-coma-to-homecoming-one-womans-100-days-of-coronavirus

Sure, the risk is low. Sure, we deal with risks all the time. But we also try to mitigate risks all the time. We use seat belts, and we look before we cross the road, we use helmets, etc There are many reasons why someone needs to go into work, and those are understandable. But do people "need" to go to raves, beaches, cinemas? do we really need to go into shops and buy a new summer outfit?

Life needs to be different, and we need to find new ways to make our economy tick. Lots of opportunities in new fields. Lets support each other and look for new ways to make the world go around.

Jrobhatch29 - as someone else there are a lot of assumption flying around.... who said that they are afraid of dying?

I am mostly afarid of being a carrier and causeing someone else's death. That is the guilt I do not want to live with.

Besides. Using your calculation. If 1% of the population is not dead but requires care, do you think life will go on as normal?

What I have been saying is that between not being in complete lockdown and acting between there is no risk, there is a vast difference. I would hope that everyone would be enjoying enough the low risk to be careful and keep it that way. Attitudes, such as "I would do as I please because is my personal choice", will increase the risk for everyone. If you are a carrier, you are increasing the risk for everyone else, is not difficult to understand.

I am sorry but covid will be with us a while. Are you going to stay at home forever incase you pass on a virus? There are lots of viruses out there that are dangerous, especially to children. If we all stayed at home on the off chance we are asymptomatic the country would grind to a halt. Also your point about the 1% only applies if the whole population had it, which clearly wont happen

Covid will be with us a while

If we are sensible it will be annoying and inconvenient

If we are stupid it will be fatal to tens of thousands & causes a double dip deep recession

Your choice

Attitudes, such as "I would do as I please because is my personal choice", will increase the risk for everyone.

I agree. But you are wasting your time with most people who think like this. They understand but choose to ignore.

@Jrobhatch29

I am sorry but covid will be with us a while. Are you going to stay at home forever incase you pass on a virus? There are lots of viruses out there that are dangerous, especially to children. If we all stayed at home on the off chance we are asymptomatic the country would grind to a halt. Also your point about the 1% only applies if the whole population had it, which clearly wont happen

Don't think they care about passing viruses onto children just if the kids pass it onto them

I'm surprised at some of the venom that has been directed at the OP on this thread. Maybe the heat is getting to people.

I share the OP's concern about the crowded beach scenes we have seen in the news recently, and can understand why many people are anxious that the good work of the lockdown might be undone if people throw caution to the wind now. I can also see why many reasons why the economy needs to get moving again, and why some people feel desperate to return to some semblance of normal life. Trouble is, going back to "normal" ways of socialising etc could cause a nasty second wave. I think we need to find a new "normal", but it will take time.

There will always be stupid, selfish people around, who will ignore any rules or guidelines that get in the way of their enjoyment. The Covid crisis has highlighted the behaviour of these people, but I think most people are trying to do the right thing, while living a life that is tolerably enjoyable - it's a balancing act. Most humans are social creatures and need social interaction, so the lockdown has taken its toll. My hope is that many people will continue to minimise social interaction, and/or socialise mainly outside, while maintaining social distance for the most part.

International travel did spread this virus all around the world.

I wonder about it resuming TBH. but it's the economy stupid. So our fears will always be there I suppose regarding many possible modes of spread. .

@hearhoovesthinkzebras the 1 in 1100 you quote is out of date and includes figures from more than 2weekx ago the figures shows an average since 8th June, but chief medical officer said rate was dropping by 3-4% a day and current rate is about 1 in1890 including all settings, it is similar in Scotland, I chose round numbers for ease but the calculations are fairly close they are certainly not out by big factors, the discussion was around schools not old folks
homes,
All the numbers are decreasing overall, there maybe a small cluster here or there but altogether the numbers of infections, numbers of hospital admissions number of people in ICU, numbers of deaths all considerably lower than even 2weeks ago never mind peaks

@TeacupDrama got to correct you re your influenza statistics. On average 17,000 people have died annually of it between 14/15 and 18/19. 28,000 did indeed die in 2014/15 but that figure was down to 1692 in 18/19. So slightly different from 28,000 a year

I have a serious and complex mental illness which has been exacerbated by the lock down. Things returning to some semblance of normality is good. The ability to go to different places, go shopping for clothes as I would have before is good for me.

"But you are missing the.point.

I can assess the risk based on what should be happening."

I think it is you who are missing the point. There is no longer 'should' for every circumstance.

You seem to be making up 'rules' based on what works for you. But other people aren't following your rules. Most are following the guidelines provided by the government, as they understand and interpret them, trying to steer a path between avoiding a surge in Covid cases and avoiding the collapse of the economy and all the things the country relies on it for.

Some, like you, are deciding on different 'rules', some more relaxed, some more rigid. And we all have make our own risk assessments, aware that some people, like you, have a different idea of what 'should' happen than we do.

And, yes, we have to bear in mind, as a PP said, that where there are actual rules, we live in a world where not everyone obeys them. And that has to come into our risk assessment, too.

I understand competely how keen people are to get more back to normal, but I do worry about people deciding it's no big deal if the virus gets transmitted around so long as shielded people stay indoors. It really matters - the virus spreading widely even amongst healthy people is still a problem. We can cope as a society with low levels of infection but if the disease spreads widely again the economy will be fucked. As a country we simply can't afford that.

The economy, education, non-covid nhs care, everyone's mental health all need people to be out and about more but only if we can do it without increasing transmission. As soon as we let numbers start to rise again, all those things are at risk. Covid has quite a high hospitalisation rate and about 1 in 10 people are ill for many weeks. If lots of people get it at once, that translates into a huge effect on the normal functioning of society, education, hospitals...

That's why we need to follow the rules as much as we possibly can - even if you write off everyone with an underlying condition, or even if they could all just stay indoors, it's still not ok for the virus to spread amongst everyone else. As a society we just can't afford for infection rates to go up again, so we have to bear that in mind when making our decisions. It's not just a case of assessing our individual risks of illness because individual illness is not the only risk we're all facing.

@katharinablum your figures though correct are for NHS England not the UK you would expect them to be lower for England than the whole UK, unfortunately those of us that live in Scotland encounter this all the time It is easy done no hard feelings as another paper quoted NHS England and later in same article attributed it to Britain which is not the same as either the UK or England, in 2014 they were 28000 for just England but only 11000 the following year, the worst was 2 years ago when we had "beast from east" storms and snow when there was 50000 excess deaths

I'm shielding and was before lockdown. I've been home alone for 100 days now bar one walk and doctors surgery
I'm very much "do what you want" but it's frustrating when people aren't distancing
I had a doctors appointment and someone stood breathing down my neck at reception. Took some rubbish out and a neighbour came right up to me to chat. People are still thinking vulnerable = old
So I guess... do what you want with going out etc but respect other people's space? I don't think that's asking too much

And yes I worry about other viruses etc. Which is why I have the flu jab, pneumonia jab, I sit in the corridor at work if someone in the office has a cough or sore throat. I inject myself weekly to try and keep my white blood count high enough to fight off infection (which makes me really unwell for 24hrs), so as much as I can to protect myself
The same as I don't want people within 2m of me at the minute is the same as I don't want someone with flu sat in the office

I am mostly afarid of being a carrier and causeing someone else's death. That is the guilt I do not want to live with.

Sorry but thats BS
Did you self isolate for every single cold or off feeling youve EVER had? No? Well you may have very well passed that one to someone, possibly killed them if they had underlying issues
Do you refuse to drive as there a high chance you will kill someone if you hit them?

You can choose to stay home but getting on your high horse, lecturing people to stay home will never win you supporters.
You need to accept people have different levels of risk assessment.

Apart from the economy, I think we've really got to look after mental health and the mental health of our children. Some people are fine staying in, some are not. How are teenagers going to find romance and make friends?

I'm nearly seventy and think it is ridiculous for everyone to give up their mental health to buy me a couple more years on this planet.

@saltycat

International travel did spread this virus all around the world.

I wonder about it resuming TBH. but it's the economy stupid. So our fears will always be there I suppose regarding many possible modes of spread. .

International travel is nothing new nor is it stupid. The 'beaker people' of what is now Germany were in Western Scotland thousands of years ago. There is a priceless necklace, 3 strands of jet from Whitby over 300 very long miles away from where it was discovered, that was found about 140 years ago, in a kist in Kilmartin, the remains were long gone, being thousands of years old, but the necklace was there and is now in Edinburgh in a museum in Chambers Street. How did that jet so far? They had all sorts, many so worse than coronavirus, and yet that jet hung round the neck of someone of very high status, thousands of years ago.

There are also in Western Scotland many carved stones, grave stones, marking the places of mostly males (only two extant are known to be of females), from 750-300 or so years old of the Loch Awe school of masonry. Someone or several were travelling all over to ply their trade.

In human culture, there are several fundamental things that never stop being so: travel (usually for trade; trade is money), sex and the sale of sex, competition (where there is not war than usually competition among males in other pursuits), enslaving the weak or conquered, gambling (usually on said competition) and use and overuse of intoxicated substances.

You are wasting your time trying to shame others out of any of these and much more. It's fallen on deaf ears for thousands of years, it's not any different now you found out about coronavirus and were so privileged you never had any idea just how shitty life can get. Please. No amount of passive aggression will work and those to whom you direct it will likely suffer no ill effect and carry on. It's how the world works.

I am one of those who, if I haven't already had it, might get very sick and die, leaving two vulnerable children with, well, not the best of circumstance, but that's how it is. And I have always done my best, following the death of their elder sisteer, to try to provide for them and put my affairs and theirs in as much order as possible, because anything can take me out and something certainly will.

Between now and then, having made those provisions, I will carry on using the brain I was given and make my own risk assessment. If it fails me, there are my writings to that effect. I tried my best.

Nah I've been working from home since March. Looking at these 4 walls everyday. I live in a big city. My daughter is 14 and it's the same for her. I'm going on holiday.

@HelloMissus

But what are people meant to do who have a business that can’t accommodate social distancing? Is it just too bad?

Yes, in the face of C19! You lose your livelihood, wind up in homeless housing, bankrupt so screw your creditors, it's seen as worthwhile, you are just a greedy capitalist, and selfish, a murderer even, and even worse for not making your business that provided you with a living C19 proof. How dare you! To the wall with you! Don't worry, the government has pots of money to pay your UC and the OP's pension and make up for her private one when she finds out that one has spent years borrowing against it and is liquidated, the HMRC will take the first cut of what's left. But never mind, you selfish-insert-adjective-and noun. There is no such thing as losing IMF credit rating and worldwide recession, possibly depression, those are not C19 so they don't count.

Monday, 30 June, supposed to do a deal to extend transition, eh. None. No more extensions. Crashy McCrash. But it's no C19 so crash away! Massive job losses, companies going into liquidation, no deal to borrow more money, no money to be borrowed, no different in October, no fucking trade deals, great! Let's wring our hands over C19 and shame people trying to make a living, let's explode on each other, 'support' and all. At least you know it won't last, once that hits.

I'm still waiting for all these fields with lots of opportunities, the OP hasn't elucidated. And it's not Captain Trips, with it's 99% strike rate, a book from 1979.

Oh dear OP, I bet you didn't expect this. I'm not staying at bloody home either, although sometimes I wish I could. To be honest, I am exhausted and can't wait for all the furloughed and shielding to return to work so I can have a rest. Every day is full-on- if I'm not doing extra work because someone is off then I am doing all the extra reporting and paperwork that comes with the current situation- separate spreadsheet every single day to report on absence, individual demographic risk assessment for 400 staff, antibody testing, the extra workload is real.

I am also getting up at 4.30 to sit on a train in a hot mask then I get to wear a frigging mask all day at work, as well as keeping up with all the one way systems and new rules at work to help to reduce the risks. So it is irritating when people want to continue with a full-blown lockdown as I can tell you that I won't last another few months like this, I need things to get back to normal.

We're going to cycle in all our goods, we didn't have the internet 20 years ago, we're going to go all online!

Ever been to a country with poor infrastructure? One storm, or even nothing, and the whole island goes out. We have masts! Yes, and only the best have about 10 hours of power on them. The smaller ones, people steal the fucking power off them if it's even there, and rip off the solar panels, to get power. You have to guard them, and pay people to do so, and usually arm them. They don't bother thinking about morality, it's a chance for power.

So many young people, I've still got battery on my phone. That's great, where will you catch a signal, seeing as the whole fucking island is blacked out and there is no supply to the masts? The generators supply the crucial ones, with guards, and not at full, but only so long, then they're blacked out, too. Even the best, you have about 10 hours.

But we're supposed to find a new way, yes, just like that.

Talk about bloody privilege. Go and live in Grenada for a year, or anywhere in the Caribbean, Latin America, pretty much anywhere but Western Europe and upper N. America (I'll leave Mexico out with good reason).

'Power's out.' 'When is it coming back on?' Nothing but shrugs. 'When it comes back on. You are spoilt and stupid.' Yes, very.

And see how well it all runs there and tell them to rip up the book and stay at home. Good luck, they might just laugh you to the airport on their own breath. OMG, don't let them breathe on you! They might have C19! More like, it's fucking TB but hey, no disease exists besides C19 now.

Oh, now, Duchess, you are being very selfish. You are supposed to be sacrificing all the The Cause. You are exempted going to work, but all else! There's just no excuse. Economy, fuckonomy! We will make a new one, paying for it with our herd of unicorns, of online schooling (remember that power grid the relies on thousands working to keep it up, money to pay them and fuel to do so), and a kinder, gentler time.

I'm actually Queen Elizabeth II and am riding Pegasus, which Zeus only loaned me because I'm a reigning monarch .